Mike Scott Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Hi Guys, I’m calling on the combined wisdom of Blatchat to help me decide on the spec of my new R400 Duratec kit I pick up in Oct The hard bit, colour, is pretty well sorted but I’m still debating which gearbox to go for I’ve read the excellent thread on “Gearbox for 300 bhp” and note Mark Biddle’s comment that he tried “new Quaife sequential box and found the change mechanism a bit agricultural”, and Alex Wong’s comment “he’d prefer a H pattern box in a road car”. On the other hand we have all read the numerous mag reviews on the new R500 raving about the new sequential box, even on road tests. So what would be your choice 🤔 H pattern or Sequential 🤔 The car will be used for 70% track and fast (there’re no speed limits on the Isle of Man) work and 30% touring, and I guess in a year or so I may be visiting Ammo for a few more bhp. I’ve already asked CC for the option price for the Sequential box in the R400 kit and they’ve said it’s only an R500 option. If they won’t play ball I may order the kit less gearbox and get the sequential direct from Quaife. Cheers Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irrelevant Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 I’ve already asked CC for the option price for the Sequential box in the R400 kit and they’ve said it’s only an R500 option. Tell them you're going to buy a Westfield then and see if they change their mind . .. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 I'm sure Parts will sell you a sequential box if you ask. Don't understand why they won't sell it with the car though Haven't tried the sequential box, but I think I'd go for it if I were in your position. Plan is a sequential box in my track-car at some point; just can't make up my mind which... /regin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 It's entirely a personal choice Mike and if you haven't driven a sequential (?) then it's difficult for you to call. In your position I think I would go sequential. If you don't, you will always be wondering what it would have been like. As far as I am concerned it will be great on the track and quite acceptable (once you get used to it ) on the road. If after trying it you find it not to your liking you will find a queue of people wanting to buy it (for more than it will cost you for an H pattern replacement). Ex Chairman Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Some good advice from Roger, a sequential is a lot of fun, and despite my comments on the Quaife Istill would not swap it for an H pattern box. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruff seven Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Hi Mike, Ive gone for the new Quaiffe, they now do a helical gear set so nice and quiet for touring, and with a Ammo 300 brake 2.2 Duratec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 I drove my car with the sequential to Marrakesh. It was fine for road use. The Elite is less clunky than the Quaife but it was very noisy and a tad unreliable. It is a question of what you want out of your Seven. There is no doubt in my mind that the Sequential is fun to use on track and whenever you're giving it some stick. I'm not convinced it gives a significant performance advantage but the biggest benefit for me was being able to down shift quickly when braking. For me, part of the problem was the sequential itself and part of it was the shear noise of the straight cut Elite (which is noisier than a SC Quaife box). If I could have a helical sequential with a shift feel like the Elite and it was reliable, I might have that over an H pattern box. AFAIK, that list of criteria has not been met yet although I have no experience of the Drenth or the new Quaife box. This is hard to explain. For me, the Seven is as much a road car as a race car and for that reason, it feels "right" with the H pattern box and a bit ........ what's the word...... contrived? with the sequential. But it is a personal thing. It's almost as if it's a step too far. That it's not really a Seven anymore with the sequential in. I know that sounds silly and I'm not explaining it well, but I feel my car is more "homogenous" with the H pattern box. ----- VDU 7X Pics More VDU 7X Pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Scott Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 Thanks all, Excellent advice as always. The sage words from Roger have swung it for me, I think I’ll go for the new Quaife sequential with helical gears. Will be getting back on to CC to see if I can persuade them to supply it as part of the kit; I’ll let you know how I get on. Alex, I fully understand your sentiments and there’s a bit of me that feels the same way, but never having had a play with a sequential I think I’ll give it a go. Thanks again for all the input. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelpugh Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Mike, As all the wise words already offered by the rest of the guys, it is purely a matter of personal preference. I have a new R500 Duratec on order, which should be delivered some time( i hope) in September. I went for the Sequential box, because it struck me that it was a must have option with the new R500. I have previously owned and built a Supersport 1800K, with a five speed box, which suited that car as I used it mostly for touring. My last Caterham was an R400 with the Six Speed box. I used that car mostly for Track Days and Sprints, so the Caterham Six Speed was the logical choice. However from the get go, I was never happy with the Caterham Six speed, the selection was never slick enough in my opinion, and it was easy to miss gears especially on track days, using full bore up shifts. In addition my Six Speed went pop in a big way, and was totally rebuilt by the great guys at road and race transmissions, at a cost of thousands I have to say!! It was whilst rebuilding the gearbox, they found that my gearbox, had a part missing from the motion shaft, that was never fitted at all, explaining the reason why it always felt so bad to change!! Once road and race had fixed it, it was a massive improvement, and I am sure Mark Williams, who now owns my car will vouch for that too!! On my new car, the final decider for me on going sequential was the power and torque handling. The new Caterham supplied Quaiffe QBE60G, that is coming in my R500 is rated to 450BHP and 400 lb/ft, so with my car coming with 265BHP, I figure there's room for future upgrades. I am sure if you asked the right person at Caterham, try Nick Potter at Caterham Midlands, they would supply a new Sequential with your R400. Best of luck, and when my comes feel free to drop by to check it out!! Nige. Nigel R500 CP - New 2008 Duratec R500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 A word of caution on helical sequentials. You won't be able to change down without the clutch as you can with a straight cut, thereby IMHO negating one of the big benefits of a sequential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 You won't be able to change down without the clutch as you can with a straight cut, thereby IMHO negating one of the big benefits of a sequential. I really don't understand this comment seeing as the gear engagement is down to the dogs and not the gear cut. FWIW, changing down without dipping the clutch is going to put shock loads into the drivetrain that are entirely avoidable with no benefit. Stop being lazy. Upchanges are different. My own view, with a Type 9 Quaife sequential fitted to my car is that it does ruin the Seven for road use. The reason is that road driving involves preparing for overtakes, requiring block downshifts. If you think an overtaking opportunity is coming your choices are to do the down shifting in advance and have the engine revving its nuts off in preparation (possibly for miles) which will make the car you are about to overtake issue hand gestures. Alternatively you can wait until the overtake opportunity occurs and then waste precious time clunking down a couple of gears. The sequential gearboxes don't like changing down gears when you aren't decelerating and don't like changing multiple gears without having the input shaft and engine spun up to speed between shifts. It is a jerky horrible mess that ruins the flow of road driving. Same thing for just reaching a GLF sign. To keep things civilised around town I might well have been pootling in 6th which is straight through and least noisy. On reaching a national speed limit sign with an H-pattern box I might well block shift 6th to 2nd and give it the noise. Try doing that and not look a twat with a sequential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilg Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Having done 2500 miles in two months in my Blackbird i would say go sequential. Take a bit of getting used to but absolutely brilliant once you have and i know i will never go back to an H pattern now that've i've sampled the delights of clutchless up shifts. Slight pain in touch and go traffic but not a problem once you've got used to it. Can't comment on the Quaife but know that both me and my mate Byker Will with Blackbirds are big fans of all things sequential. Having driven the H pattern R500 Duratec , the yellowy one it would be first on my tick list of options. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopQ1967 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 If you really want to buy a good box you can join the Drenth bulk buy Q. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetestbestanden Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 There have been several recantings on this board of right proper blow-ups of propshaft U joints which *possibly* are a result of shock loading from sequentials. Anecdotal evidence perhaps but for sure the results are not pretty. I'll be making mine the H pattern variety. ------- Chris Ad majorem 7 gloriam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Peter, my comment was based on experience with the two different types. I did have a helical cut cut quaife box in the car but put the old straight cut back in for that very reason, it just did not change down as well. Maybe it was down to some other factor? Of course in normal road driving I mostly use the clutch, even for upchanges in traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 This guy here didn't have a problem with an H pattern: here 😬 Ammo Raceco.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 On reaching a national speed limit sign with an H-pattern box I might well block shift 6th to 2nd and give it the noise. Try doing that and not look a twat with a sequential. 😬 priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Peter - good point about sequential on the road - reminds me of years ago riding a 600cc bike where you really do have to bang down 4 gears for an overtake! Anyway, as I've said before I find the H-pattern far more satisfying on track too, with the sequential all a bit computer-gamey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Just an observation, but new H pattern boxes are >1500 cheaper than sequential. If its going to be mainly track use then the sequential is going to be best bet. Frrom my experience it transforms the tactile feel of the car on the track - appreciate measuring the performance difference (especially with me behind wheel) is going to be limited.... If it was 70% road and 30% track I would go H pattern and put the £1500 to other improvements :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 This guy here didn't have a problem with an H pattern: He doesn't have a problem with anything now Ammo! 😳 Brilliant clip. So, what's the difference between a sequential box in a car, on the road, and a motorcycle? I never had a problem with the 18 motorcycles I owned over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 So, what's the difference between a sequential box in a car, on the road, and a motorcycle? confused smiley I never had a problem with the 18 motorcycles I owned over the years. Even 250bhp sequential gearboxed Sevens get stuck behind cars in traffic. I'm not sure as I am a non-biker, but I reckon car driving involves more free-form gearchanging. I see many motorcycle overtakes where the biker knows he's going to get past so doesn't even bother with knocking it down a gear, also knowing that the space they have to move back into doesn't need to be hugely large and their vision of the road ahead is better too. In a queue of the ubiquitous 40mph traffic you get these days, the bike can pull back in after each overtake and the cars make space (usually), in a way they don't for a car. If the worst comes to the worst, the narrower bike presents less of a target for a head-on crash. The inertia is lower on the bike engines/clutches/gearboxes and that must help the changes go in smoothly. In my Seven, I have comparatively poor vision of the road ahead and even though the acceleration and flexibility of the engine is good, I prefer the assurance of selecting a lower gear for overtakes because... ... it avoids bad consequences from arseholes who accelerate when they see you coming ... it leaves enough space to pull back in before the oncoming car flashes you from 200m away ... it is one of the few opportunities you get to give the car lots of throttle on the road (even if it only lasts a few seconds) The difference is between smooth, effortless bike overtaking and noisy, brash, WOT/all-the-revs Seven overtaking. The single issue that is poor about the sequential for this type of driving is if you have to change two gears (or more) prior to accelerating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Why would you be pootling around in 6th if you intention was to overtake 🤔 Surely you would be in a lower gear in anticipation of an oppurtunity. Same for leaving a 30mph zone, 6th gear . Only downside I see with a sequential is when you approach a stop sign as you have to go down through all the gears but it soon becomes instinctive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 As you do in a bike. But I've never driven a car with sequential, so I guess I'll find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTH Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 reminds me of years ago riding a 600cc bike where you really do have to bang down 4 gears for an overtake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSL Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Bike gear box's are as light as a feather compared to a car sequential unit, no chore at all with bike motor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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