BMW/Titan LSD Viability

[Wrightpayne]

Geoff,

Have you not received low flying? If we were still divorced I don't think we'd have access for an interview with Graham!!

Regards

Ian

[Geoff Brown]

Wrightpayne #126 - The interview is a different matter. The club is not all nice & cosy when it comes to straight talk about membership, events, support, ownership & technical matters.  The link between us may mellow over time but at the moment we are still a divorced couple with our bedroom door still open!

[Golf Juliet Tango]

That is why I think The Club has a part to play.

No, it doesn't. That isn't the function of the Club, nor has it intervened over technical issues in the past. But the communication between members is very valuable in informing and creating the exchange of experience.

[O.G.]

Steven,

"That is why I think The Club has a part to play"  

You said "No it doesn't". Can you please explain why? Is this a club policy or is it a personal view? Perhaps it is something that the club could move on to.

Personally I wouldn't want this thread to be hi jacked by what could turn into quite an emotive subject so I won't say anything more.

O.G.

[andy_harries]

Have read the full thread and must say this is the first time I've been glad to continue to have an open diff on my car.

I was thinking the next upgrade would be an LSD - looks like I'll need to choose carefully even though its not a Duratec engine (150hp Sigma Roadsport)

[Wrightpayne]

I dont think it is the role of the club to litigate on behalf of disgruntled owners whether they have a case or not. Its a car club not a firm of lawyers! Why would a neutral entity put itself in the firing line?

Blatchat is a place to promote discussion and sharing of information for owners to carry forward as they see fit.

[StevehS3]

#130 Same here, I was considering an upgrade from open to LSD over winter. The problems relate solely to the Titan unit so obviously I wouldn't consider fitting one of those even with a meagre 120hp. 
 

#125 ScottR400D do you know if that applies to the BMW open diff? ie " It is designed to fit the BMW housing and the standard driveshafts. A matter of removing the diff as a whole, getting it to Steve Perks, getting it back and refitting.

[ScottR400D]

#132

Yes, of course. When my original LSD failed damaging the CWP, I bought an open BMW diff from CC and had it sent directly to SPC. 

Steve installed his LSD, I collected the assembly and refitted. 

[ScottR400D]

#131. I think that’s a fair point but the Club is more than just Blatchat and they do act in many other areas on behalf of the members, so why not in a case like this, if it’s worth acting on?

We’re not talking about legal action, I wouldn’t think, just one body making a joint approach on behalf of those interested. (Not that I think it’d make much difference with CC/Titan)

Having said that, the Club’s leaders seem to have been quite prepared to act like a firm of lawyers in the past............

[Wrightpayne]

That was under the old management!

[Geoff Brown]

In the past the club did have a technical group that liaised with CC. One of the biggest successes was when the Sigma cars were launched convincing CC that there was an inherent problem with the engine management, that the radiator plastic header & footers were faulty & a large batch of front flexi brake hoses were faulty. 
CC listened & slowly rectified all to some extent.

[Mrp]

#131

[Dave Hardcastle]

#111 - 113 Geoff, Scott & James Thanks for taking the time to reply. My ' worry mode ' stopped me noticing that the thread targets BMW diffs, rather than Ford. That is some piece of mind as I can now use the car without worrying it's going to self-destruct. Now just need to find out what I do have to guide the next decision!

[ScottR400D]

#138. I think that’s likely the case Dave, because, as I understand it, the Titan came along roughly in line with the BMW housing and so is mostly in them. 

Previously the Fords had various options but not the Titan, though there may be some overlap. 

[Alan Bowler]

So is my 2011 Titan/Ford "at risk", or is this only a BMW/recent plates/200+ bhp issue?

 I did the checks, wheels spin together, but 20lbft preload. I've no clue what the orginal preload was. No increase in noise. 
 

What is the effect of reduced preload? Oversteer/understeer?

Thanks
AB

[ScottR400D]

AB, I’m just guessing but perhaps you have the original carbon plates which appear to have been the best version of Titan LSD. 

The story is that at some point they ‘changed’ and began to wear very quickly hence the introduction of the sintered metal plates. 

Current thinking seems to be that preload starts off at about 40lbs ft. When that’s down to 20 it’s time to be planning a rebuild, much below is close to full failure. I guess because the reducing preload indicates increasing wear of friction plates and springs. 

Maybe if the earlier carbon plates didn’t wear so fast they could start with a lower preload and yours is OK at 20? 

A lower preload, as far as I know, reduces the initial amount of locking, which would reduce any understeer induced by the LSD.   

 

[ScottR400D]

For anyone interested I’ve been chatting to Steve Perks who has given me some background on the Titan LSD from his point of view  

They were widely fitted to the Sierra housing. Steve used to maintain Bookatrack’s diffs and was rebuilding at least twice a year. Steve says he rebuilt ‘hundreds’ of them.

The original Titan used 6 lug friction plates but the lugs got ripped off so they moved to 12 lug. The originals were sintered but they moved to carbon because of awful NVH. The carbon never lasted well, sometimes just a few weeks. 

I’ve concluded that the carbon/sintered plates are a bit of a red herring and the problem lies elsewhere in the design. Perhaps the reason the carbon plates wear so quickly and the sintered plates are cacophonous is one and the same? 

[Simon.Rogers]

Breaking News!

I was one of the very early adopters of the Tracsport LSD and have been using, selling and promoting it for nearly 5 years.  Clearly it has hard use from me with all the hillclimb and sprint starts etc.

We will shortly be able to offer a full sale and installation service to help SPC out with their bench work.

We will be able to offer the LSD installation and service along with full diff removal, LSD fit and reinstallation.

Ben Williams who works for me here will be doing the build work.  We will both be visiting SPC shortly for training to ensure the correct work is completed.

This will hopefully speed up the service available and ensure less down time.

My preload started at 26lbft and dropped pretty soon as expected (as the plates bedded in) to 21lbft.  Recently checked and it is still at over 19lbft.

[Grant_7]

Hi All,

It's been interesting reading through this thread, as it has coincided with my own actions in having my LSD checked.

My Seven is a late 2015 kit-build 420R, running 220bhp RBTBs and a Caterham 6-speed 'box. The car has covered 8000 miles and has a carbon-plated Titan 'BMW' LSD.

Back in April I discovered that I'd lost preload in the diff in my (new to me) 420R. The plan was to remove the diff this Winter to investigate, however things accelerated a few weeks ago when I decided to combine the work with having my DS Tower modified by Premier Power. Stuart at PP also removed the diff, which I took to SPC Components in Redditch this afternoon.

Rather than spend ages typing up what I saw today, and as I took some pictures and video while Steve Perks was stripping the differential, I thought it easier to put it into a video on Youtube (see link below).

I hope that this helps visualise some of the issues that people have been discussing on this thread.

[ScottR400D]

Good little video, Grant. Your LSD looks much like mine did when stripped at a similar mileage.

It's been said to me, more than once, during this period that the Titan just isn't fit for purpose. It's pretty hard to argue with that now.

[Wrightpayne]

Scott,

What is the life expectancy (before rebuild) of the Tracsport diff. I know its subjective based on type of driving - lets say 3k miles p.a. Incl 4 track days? I'd hope 5ish years??

I guess the take away from this, like brakes and clutches, items that operate using friction materials will wear out and need maintenance. Plate type diffs are not fit and forget even if you have the best on the market! 
 

 

[7oaks]

Tracsport must be a lot heavier? Time will tell what the best compromise solution is, good to know though that the Titan needs regular servicing/refreshing, will get mine done.

[ScottR400D]

#146. Well, that’s still the big question of course! 

Anecdotally, the SPC LSD has been in race cars, track experience cars and road cars for some time and has shown the sort of resilience that would lead to an expectation of quite a few years use as a road/track day car. 

Simon Rogers, above, implies the same and I am told the SPC is fitted to the Palmersport cars with very good results. I would have thought that both of these examples will be more extreme than the average user. 

Maybe Simon can give us some more info, exactly how long, how many miles have his SPCs done?

 

 

[ScottR400D]

#147. It may be a little heavier but I’m not sure that's of consequence to most of us. 

Its certainly not heavier in the same way that the BMW housing is heavier than the Ford but most owners tolerate that, perhaps just not realising the difference. 

For me the better performance of the SPC more than compensates for any extra weight, not to mention the expected gains in longevity. 

 

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Steve Perks tells me his LSD should effectively not need service.

I will find out more from him when we go in the next couple of weeks for our build training.

Looking at my mileage is not really representative Scott.  I do zero road miles maybe 1 shakedown day at the beginning of a season.  The remainder is around 12 - 14 events x say an average of 6 runs.  That's 84 starts.  Side stepping the clutch at anywhere from 4000rpm to 8500rpm with tyres that are so sticky 90 sec is all they can take in one hit.

Also during the average season, I would suggest that's just 84 min of very very hard driving.

All I can say is Faultless.