BMW/Titan LSD Viability

[ScottR400D]

#99. You might think they'd warrant it at least up to the 10,000 mile first service recommendation, wouldn't you? Mine and others got nowhere near that.

Ref the earlier question about SPC turnaround, I would recommend that you made an appointment with Steve to carry out the LSD swap, then arrange the removing and replacement of the diff accordingly. 

[CtrMint]

Why is nobody taking this up with CC.  The 620 cooling issue was originally dismissed, though after what is now 7 months of intermittent private comms, CC has taken note.  This issue seems more concerning than the challenges induced by the cooling probs.  There's certainly sufficient voices in the community.

[ScottR400D]

Mark, You make a very good point. From my point of view, my car was just about 5 years old when my LSD failed, albeit very low mileage, I'm not sure they'd be much interested in such a case. 

I like to think that if my car was within warranty I'd have a go at them but my experience and from what I've read, it would be a hard slog anyway and I couldn't hand on heart say I'd bother. Still, if any new car owners kick something off, I'd be happy to put my oar in too.

Much earlier in the thread Aerobod linked to Titan and said that "Titan don't claim longevity for their diff plates, 10,000 road miles or one race season is the recommended rebuild interval"

I've read that and what it actually says is 'Titan recommends that the LSD is serviced every 12 months, race season, or every 10,000 road use miles'. I take that to mean every 12 months, race season or 10k if that's less than 12 months, implying that once a car is out of warranty you have no comeback, under that, regardless of mileage. Once the diff has been rebuilt by RRT, Phil will warrant his work, and IME he does that 100% but I doubt even he would warrant against wear of the plates, especially as he will, without doubt, be very clear about the need to rebuild regularly.

I'd love to know if anyone knew, or was told about, these servicing requirements before they bought a car...........

[CtrMint]

Experience..   well when I built my car and starting driving it I was concerned about the noise from the diff.  It was raised with Oakmere at first service and prior by a video to CC.  Both came back with no issues, both stated they are all like that.   When I spoke to CC I mentioned Id competed rallying in plenty of rally cars with plated diffs etc, so had experience of that sort of behaviour, none sounded as bad.  CC said it sounded worse due to where you sit, fair enough.   I still think the behaviour of my car is a dogs dinner when reversing, again Oakmere tested and said it was fine.  

At no point in time did someone say anything about maintenance intervals, they did however say I had the sintered plates in my kit from Oct 2018.  This leads me onto my next query.   Apologies if this pulls the thread temporarily in one direction.  Practicalities!

The diff rebuild I'm hearing is about 800 without shipping.  Shipping for me from the IOM is a nightmare  The weight of the diff will add a significant amount to the cost in both directions.  So out of curiosity I've looked at the CC parts site and found a new diff to be marginally more expensive, assuming I'm looking at the correct part.   Would appreciate any input on that.  From the photo I took at install my diff casing was labelled 391, so 1163.96 new?  I know there are arguments to have a better diff etc.  But if can get CC to ship a diff rather than rebuild, then bring a pending rebuild diff over at a later date myself I'd avoid the delivery charge,   Or am I missing something?

Buying a new diff just seems easier? Certainly due to my location.  Hell having a spare now seems important...

 

 

 

[Benton]

So for the record......

Ordered in late 2017, picked up my 420R in March 2018, knew nothing or advised about LSD requirements/issues. Transmission has always been noisy in my car from day one, but to me no more so than any other Caterham I've driven.  

Around June this year 15,000 miles later (I know an astronomical mileage in the timescale it seems in Caterham terms!!!) noticed "clonking" turning at low speed. At yearly service in July told LSD had failed (was a carbon plate one), an exchange "off the shelf" diff was fitted (with sintered plates) and which after some correspondence the cost was covered under warranty.

Whilst I'm sure I'm technically capable of rebuilding the diff (given some basic pointers, probably more of a pain getting it out of/ back in the car, since I've messed about with engine and gearbox rebuilds in the past) this new opportunity doesn't exactly fill me with joy.....

 

 

[ScottR400D]

#104 Mark, the diff you've priced is an open one. With the LSD installed its £2300 odd IIRC.

What I did was buy the open diff and have it shipped to SPC for Steve to fit his LSD to it. I now have a fully rebuilt diff with Titan LSD as a ‘spare’. 

 

[CtrMint]

[Geoff Brown]

I am writing to Caterham Cars on this subject - I do not expect a straight forward honest answer if one at all. Is Graham Macdonald situated at Dartford or Croydon?

Unfortunately the club has no leverage in these matters due to Caterham walking away a few years ago. Quote; 'Caterham instead, will aim to foster closer relationships and support valued customers directly so it may better understand and serve their interests.'  

So until now ignoring the 620 cooling issues & probably hoping that the Titan problem goes away follows the ethos of that statement??

ScottR400D: I have taken on board your comments about my proposed Titan in service checks & will amend in a suitable fashion then upload. As for the Titan service interval the way I read it is that for a road car the service backstop is 10,000 miles. For an average Seven that is about three years. 'Annually' would be 'either/or' which means to me higher mileage in a calendar year. The backstop mileage would more than likely decrease depending on the number of annual track days.

Whichever way you look at dropping the diff either annually or every 10,000 miles/three years is an absolute ball ache. One must consider the cost of incidentals - nuts, bolts, washers, bushes, bearings etc. After seven years & 20,000 miles I am replacing the vast majority of fixings. Also while everything is out I am upgrading the rear hubs & bearings.

I delivered my diff to SPC on the 6th October & at that time Steve's estimate for completion was at least two weeks. Of course after this post it will be much longer!

 

 

[ScottR400D]

Geoff. All I would say is that Mr McDonald says a lot of things.......

I agree that the Titan statement is ambiguous but would have thought a higher powered car would only get to 10k if the mileage built quickly which might imply more longer, cruising drives. Who knows?

i do know that Phil Stewart led me to believe the safe way with a higher powered car is more like every 3-5k, couple of years. Less if racing or tracking regularly but to rely on regular pre load checks because of the variance in life being seen.   

 

 

[Dave Hardcastle]

Another concerned member here. I purchased my 2008 R400D Superlight 7 weeks ago. It was advertised as having an LSD. Noticed that this car is a lot quieter than my last, and I didn't feel any oversteer if I accelerated in a corner, as I did in my last Caterham. There aren't any clonks going forward, or in reverse. The car's recently been at Northampton Motorsport (highly recommended) for other issues, they mentioned diff noises. That and this thread, caused me to start checking.

Side Comment: I had an LSD fitted to my previous Caterham by Nick Potter/R&R, so presumably Titan. Incidently, owing to this forum I asked during that purchase whether adjustments were required. Nick checked with R&R, I was told, and the reply was they'd never known the LSD's to need adjusting. I can only assume the question was taken at face value, they don't require adjusting, just rebuilding!

Owing to this post I started to wonder about the R400D. At the moment my issue is that I don't know whether I have an ATB fitted or a Titan. I have queries in with Martin Phipps and the dealer, Sevens & Classics.

Checks I've done; 1) one wheel on the ground, I can turn the raised wheel by hand, easily. 2) Both wheels raised, turn a wheel and the other turns in the same direction. 3) No markings on the diff indicating ATB fitted, that I found.

1 & 2 suggest either ATB or worn out Titan. 2 & 3 suggest worn out Titan, going by what I've read on the forum. The year 2008, appears to be in the ATB/Titan transition era.

,

If anyone can tell me a definitive check, without taking the diff out/apart, that would be very helpful.

Dave

[Geoff Brown]

Dave #110 - Obviously a Ford diff which for some reason does not have the same incidence of problems as the BMW. To be honest I am not sure if the Titan unit was ever fitted to Ford diffs in 2008. 

I do know that Quaifes & ZFs were fitted at some time in the not too distant past.

I am sure that someone will be along shortly to correct me.

[ScottR400D]

Dave, your 2) suggests an operative Titan. Everything else and the car's age suggests a Quaife or something similar, I think but others may know better.

 

 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Dave, One thing you could do is borrow or buy a cheap fibre optic camera and insert it through the fill plug, or you may be able to get away with just pointing a smartphone camera in the fill hole. The Titan LSD will have elongated holes in the side of the casing to allow oil inside, the ATB ones I have seen have round holes.

[Dixa1225]

Caterham South are in Crawley not Croydon. Graham is based at Dartford.  

[CtrMint]

I had a chance to at least test the behaviour of my diff this afternoon.  After crawling over a cattle grid, the following section of road had a brief flow of surface run off over it, plus the road was under some trees with fallen leaves, nice and slippery.  After passing through the water I gave it a boot full.  It spun up in 1st and 2nd feeling beautifully consistent across both wheels.  I'm assuming a less than ideal situation would have caused a greater amount of drive to one side and leaving it feel less balanced.  I'm still going to have a go at checking the preload, if anything to continue learning.

[ScottR400D]

How many miles has that car done Mark? 

[CtrMint]

Just under 3500 miles, she passed her test and went on the road last day of Feb 2019.  There hasnt been any track work, but it regularly sees high speeds, thanks to Manx speed limits and quiet roads.  

[ScottR400D]

Ah, well I think even the Titan would be expected to do 3.5k!

It would be good to hear what the preload is at the moment. 

When my diff was inoperative it could be a bit wild accelerating hard out of tight corners, roundabouts etc, fishtailing wasn’t unusual, so I think it’s safe to say yours is working......... for now. 

[CtrMint]

It would be good if we could get a published list of age/mileage/preload.  If we had a good sample set over time we might discover a trend which would help ourselves as consumers and those involved in the supply chain.

 

[R400svn]

Strangely mine seems to have no preload when doing the wheel test. Plus its pretty clunky however coming off islands and slow tight bends it steps out quite progressively with nice control. Making me think that it is doing something when loaded up. 

[Geoff Brown]

R400svn #120 - Up until a month ago I too thought that my LSD was working through corners if a little screechy. But the wheel rotation test & the pull off check - approx 12ft/lbs confirmed something wrong. The strip down at SPC revealed cracked springs, worn thin thrust washers & worn bare carbon plates. 
Car - 2013 R400D 220bhp 20000 miles.

[R400svn]

Geoff. I am pretty sure mine is much the same, 10000 miles 2015 220bhp. 

[O.G.]

Personal thanks for all the helpful advice and comments from everyone. I think that as they all stayed on point says a lot about how important we deem this to be. The suggestions about the regular torque checks/oil changes are really helpful.

But - there's always a but, aren't we missing the point here. We payed extra to have a LSD, not a progressively degrading unit ending up with half an LSD at 6000 miles or so. It then requires £800 plus rebuild plus removal/refit time or cost. In the mean time we have had to put up with grating, clunking banging etc. No other component on what was spec'd and sold to me principally as a road car comes with this sort of baggage. It's just a LSD after all!!!

That is why I think The Club has a part to play.

Can anybody explain what the change to SPC entails. Is it just LSD innards? Are new shaft etc required?

Thanks again to all.

O.G.

 

[Geoff Brown]

OG #123 - Just a new LS unit + bearings, seals & set up.

The club has no leverage with Caterham Cars when it comes to anything relating to Seven ownership. We are divorced but the club door is still open.

My letter to Graham Macdonald now composed & on its way. I was very polite & did not put my neck on the litigation block! I await what will probably be a b*ll sh*t reply. I will publish it here for all to read.

 

[ScottR400D]

OG, its just a straight swap of the LSD. It is designed to fit the BMW housing and the standard driveshafts. A matter of removing the diff as a whole, getting it to Steve Perks, getting it back and refitting.