ScottR400D Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 No, there’s no drain plug but it is relatively straightforward to suck all but 50/100ml our with a Pela or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Geoff Brown Posted October 18, 2020 Author Area Representative Share Posted October 18, 2020 But that very last amount of oil could contain some or all of the fallout. That is why it is worth considering a magnetic plug. But the overall colour of the removed oil will warn of something going on.I can never understand why a drain plug is not included as at some time the oil will need to be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 My guess as to why there’s no drain is that both diffs are originally from road cars, probably never had plate LSDs and wouldn’t need regular oil changes. The cost of putting in a drain plug may be small but when multiplied by many thousands it adds up for a manufacturer. As to why CC never put one low down on their back plate I can only assume they also thought they wouldn’t need oil changes, or felt the back plate would be off often enough in any case I would have thought the mag plug, even at fill level, would pick up any bits likely to cause damage though there’s always the risk of something being left in there even with a drain. The only sure way is to remove the back plate altogether. Edited to add: having had look on line it seems the BMW 168 did originally have a drain plug. CC seem to have decided it's not needed...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aerobod - near CYYC Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 ...it seems the BMW 168 did originally have a drain plug.Certainly for the last few generations of BMW they haven't had drain plugs for the cars that use the 168 diff, currently 120/320/520 etc and smaller engined petrol models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 I've done it with engines, drain it, chuck some cheap oil in and get it hot and drain again to act as a flush.Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 The number of owners innocently driving around with their Titan merrily on it way to destruction or causing the whole diff to implode must be immeasurable. With all the background noises attributed to driving a Seven it can be difficult to know when the diff is trying to tell you something. Fortunately mine 'spoke to me' with noises I could not ignore catching it just in time.Could you expand on what to listen for? above and beyond the usual symphony of noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Geoff Brown Posted October 18, 2020 Author Area Representative Share Posted October 18, 2020 CTRMint #181 - Some of the symptoms are mentioned over these pages but here are my experiences: Car does not feel seated when cornering with applied throttle. Unstable accelerating from stand still in a straight line giving the beans. Also the car may not lay down equal lines of rubber. A chattering or annoying low screeching in a straight line. Cornering the chattering or screeching is louder.You can hear this - trust me! The ultimate symptom is the wheel rotation test & then if in doubt the hub break away torque check. The ultimate symptom is of course when the diff implodes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 I know you have the tools to follow this procedure. https://caterham420detailedbuildblog.co.uk/2020/10/18/differential-preload-check/What preload have you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 A chattering or annoying low screeching in a straight line. Cornering the chattering or screeching is louder.That's my diff from zero miles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Does this method of checking the preload also apply to older LSD such as the AP Suretrak or ZF units? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7 wonders of the world Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 ZF yes as this is a plate LSd albeit of a very well proven design, interesting to check as many were supplied by CC with 65lb'ft preload - ie in tintop spec !AP no this is an ATB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 18, 2020 Share Posted October 18, 2020 Any plate diff, but the "normal" and "rebuild" torque figures will be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Geoff Brown Posted October 19, 2020 Author Area Representative Share Posted October 19, 2020 CtrMint - This seems to be the story of these noises 'straight out of the box'. This condition could be for a variety of reasons - poor set up of the Titan unit & if there is knocking as well probably poor end float set up which could effect the Titan?There is a theory that for some reason the Titan has problems coping with the output from engines above 200bhp. Yet to be proven. But there appears to be a trend.........Thankfully my LSD was quiet for about six years then started to tell me all was not well. If only CC had published the service requirements for the Titan I could have avoided all the problems. By now I would have dropped my diff for service at least three times!!!!! One saving grace is to have found the SPC LS unit.To resolve any anxiety carry out the wheel rotation check. Then to see how close to failure the titan unit may be - hub torque pull off - figure below 20ft/lbs indicates nearing the time for action. Then finally oil sample - anything other than reasonably clean also a time for action.I have created a tech guide about all the symptoms which I hope will be published in Guides soon. Just a collection of all possible symptoms & the actions required to check out the Titan unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 While I'm reading and engaging with the thread I am loathing checking, predicting frustration etc. WIth my 620R essentially off the road, to find out my diff in the 420R is on its way out will be a proper and probably final kick in the nuts. I guess at some point it will need checking, since my 420R has never been tracked but has experienced regular high speed road work not sure what the result will be. Either way, I had a very low confidence level from the outset, so i doubt there will be any real surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 For those interested the first file is a freshly rebuilt Titan and the second, the same car driven in the same place, with the SPC LSD. Hopefully the links will work, you may need to copy and paste. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7xjo8hlsehrqpvb/AACr0K11dXqs4WIz80vHrLTda?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/1pati2qyd9v7dch/Pittocks%20Lane.m4a?dl=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Why is your diff on its way out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 These might be better. As you'll have guessed, I have no idea what I'm doing.......... https://www.dropbox.com/s/348zbzd3dahifou/34%20Market%20Place.m4a?dl=0https://www.dropbox.com/s/1pati2qyd9v7dch/Pittocks%20Lane.m4a?dl=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Geoff Brown Posted October 19, 2020 Author Area Representative Share Posted October 19, 2020 ChrisC #191 - Not sure who your question applies to but: My Titan was failing. Strange noises, wheel rotation check & torque pull off raised doubts as to serviceability. Strip down at SPC revealed all springs cracked, worn thin thrust washers & no carbon remaining on the plates. I am lucky with no loose fragments rattling around in the Titan or diff. Doubly lucky because the diff had reached 20,000 road miles over 7 years but I suspect failure started before that. I would definitely recommend a regular check of the pull off & wheel rotation check as the average mean time to failure for those that have released the info is between 4000 & 5000 miles. This is all ball park dependent on use & track days, Carbon or sintered plates. But this is all relative.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grant_7 Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Thanks for sharing the sound file - WOW, what a difference!And to think that's a newly refreshed Titan diff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Geoff, I think he was referring to Mark's (Ctr..) comment. Mark should be fine at the moment, his car's still very low mileage. Should be...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Thanks for listening and confirming the links Grant. I had a couple of hours blasting around Norfolk this morning, longest drive for a while and it was a real pleasure! The more I drive the car the more I'm pleased with the SPC, it's quiet and does the job really well.Yes, the Titan had done only 20 miles or so at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteWi Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Having had a long conversation on this subject with Steve Perks he explained torque is the contributing factor and given the torque multiplication from the gearbox lower power engines can result in the same problem.I'm seeing problems with my BMW diff on a 2012 Sigma Supersport with around 15,000 road and track miles on it. I can spin a wheel with less than 10 ft lbs. Last week when in for an MOT I was asked whether I was sure it had an LSD fitted based on what they observed - they work on a lot of classic road and race cars fitted with LSDs. My diff has always been quiet, almost certainly carbon plates, and continues to be so but does not appear to be operating as intended.Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Sorry for not being specific, it was for Mark. I know Titan LSD are failing at the moment, and must have been for sometime because CC changed the spec in 2018, this must have been prompted by something. Marks car is Titan BMW with Sintered plates, and posts about impending failure. We know from this thread so far1, Titan Sierra Carbon diff can give long service life. (2009 example on the verge of rebuild needed) 2, Titan BMW Carbon diff can give short service life, plenty of examples of 2015-2017 cars failing based on mileage and use.What's unclear from the experience on here is the life of Titan BMW Sintered diffs, as fitted post 2018. Mine only has 1000 miles, so doesn't count. Marks 420 on the other hand has more known miles and is an early indicator of the expected real world experience owners can expect. We need 2018 cars with known history, to report their experiences. I totally understand the anger and frustration of owning a Titan BMW with Carbon plates, and the choices members have made. Do we have to wait until Sintered plates start failing before seeing the bigger picture or can we as a collected group get some data together on wear rates for the current solution. I would like to think we could, although this might not be the agenda. Imagine the 2017 owner reading this thread, testing their diff, finding a reading in the low 20's, and having a choice to make. Knowing X years is a realistically achievable, but at the expense of increased noise, over replacement with better quality molybdenum plates, will be a personal choice, but an informed one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR400D Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Chris, can you explain your final para a bit further? What do you mean “Knowing X years is a realistically achievable, but at the expense of increased noise, over replacement with better quality molybdenum plates, will be a personal choice, but an informed one.”At first I thought you meant there’s a choice between Titan Carbon and sintered plates but that doesn’t fit.Where do the moly plates come in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CtrMint Posted October 19, 2020 Share Posted October 19, 2020 Why, well low confidence from initial build and ongoing noise. Terrible low speed manners, particularly reversing, it feels oval when reversing shuddering and shaking as it reverses, but always had. To the point I've checked the rear of the car dozens of times. Oakmere said the diff was fine, TADT. South Coast have twice checked the build, chassis and installation, everything good, but did comment the diff was noisy on multiple occasions. Cornering lower speed through anything tighter than 45 deg sounds like that's significant contact between two surfaces.I guess I need to go measure it. I'm doing the caterhamracer prequali tonight and race tomorrow, so Wednesday evening its. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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