CSR owners check your rear suspension mounts

[ScottR400D]

CC: "what problem?"

"Well, we've heard anecdotally about this but have no real evidence"

"Having looked we now say that we have always been recommending changing these at 2 years, x000 miles. We are sure."

"We're disappointed customers haven't just bought more of the dodgy bit from us and replaced them every year..."

[David aka Blue7]

#101 Do I detect a touch of cynicism

[Gareth H]

Here is the response from DVSA, has anybody reported the issue to Caterham? If so any chance I could have a copy of the correspondence for my reply?

 

[Shortshift]

Gareth - can you add that as an attachment or as a linked-document as it's not legible at present?

James

[Jonathan Kay]

It's showing but the low resolution makes it unreadable.

It would be probably be fine using the upload process that doesn't reduce the resolution. Start with this tool:

or send it to me and I'll upload it.

Jonathan

[Gareth H]

I've messaged you Jonathon

[Jonathan Kay]

[Gareth H]

Thanks

[David aka Blue7]

I emailed Bob Laishley last Sunday 30 July but I have not received a reply.  The email address I used was bob.laishley@caterham.com I assume that is his email, if anyone has a different email please let me know?  To be honest I doubt if I will receive a reply but I am always hopeful given the Japanese First Bushido Code being Rectitude or Justice

正義か正義か。

Masayoshi ka Masayoshi ka.

I don't want to cause Caterham any bad publicity as such but they should have some integrity and make an attempt to contact purchasers, they must surely still have names and addresses and it doesn't cost much to write and send an "advisory" letter.  Not long after CSRs were first built, there were a number of Technical Updates so CC could take a leaf out of Microshaft book and issue a "Critical Update".

SamC will have some valuable information, he had the parts analised in a Lab. here

Mark seems to have been the first person to have experienced this problem back in 2020 so he will have some good information also here

Also Jimmy Stew has some good information here:  Car at Stuarts and has been examined. Insurer has reported as follows:  " In the engineers opinion the 'Shock Absorber had broken away at its mounting point' and 'The damage to the fractured parts appears to be fresh with no evidence of previous fractures' and 'the fracture of the suspension part is possibly as a result of a latent defect in the component which has suddenly given way'."

My Garage phoned yesterday to say the they had replaced both clevis brackets without problem but ... they had discovered hairline cracks in the steering rack which would require welding

David

 

[Shortshift]

I know of one further CSR owner who has today notified DVSA following the incident he had some while back, now, with sudden catastrophic failure of the clevis bracket.

My brackets appear to be fine (had a really good inspection!) but it looks increasingly as though the failure mode is time-dependent as much as it is usage or mileage related.  A case of when, rather than if, there will be a failure?  Rather concerning.

James

[David aka Blue7]

I stand corrected, I have just received a reply from Bob Laishley as follows:

Dear Mr Evans,

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, please allow me some time to study with our engineering team and come back to you with a more formal and comprehensive reply.

Regards

Bob

This sounds promising, if CC can acknowledge the problem they can at the very least advise all  the Agents to check and advise owners to replace CSR clevis mounts when they are serviced.  It sounds as if CC are not aware of the problem, which is surprising?

David

 

[ScottR400D]

"It sounds as if CC are not aware of the problem, which is surprising?"

Not at all surprising to me. They're rarely aware of the problems the cars have. At least that's what they say. 
 

"......but they should have some integrity and make an attempt to contact purchasers, they must surely still have names and addresses and it doesn't cost much to write and send an "advisory" letter......"

There's a good chance that the cars have changed hands but there must be ways to do that. At least advise the Club who could get the attention of many. 

[OldAndrewE]

I am only an interested spectator on this but I can't help adding a couple of thoughts.

I would be very surprised if someone from CC does not pay attention to things that are posted on here, they must already be aware of the issue, albeit informally.

The main problem we have with these cars is that the first response to any problem (for most of us) is to try and fix it either by ourselves or with the help of the collective knowledge here, not revert to the manufacturer or dealer.  This has lead to quite a few of these instances occurring without any collation of data.  If this were the failure of a major suspension component on a 'main stream' car I think the situation would be very different

[SamC]

I completely agree with #113.

I heard of the issue on here whilst researching CSRs before I purchased and planned to replace mine as a precaution after deciding to do a suspension refresh. So fortunately I had the brackets in stock when I discovered my failures.

Other than a phone call to Caterham Parts to discuss the failure, I just fitted the new brackets and thanked my luck that I read this forum and saw a failure with my own eyes at a garage last year.

I spread the word on here and on Facebook in the hope of raising awareness and bringing the discussion back to the fore, but must admit I didn't have the energy or time to pursue it with Caterham further.

These cars are so regularity played with and adjusted by enthusiasts and non Caterham approved garages, this failure could well be induced by over torquing that bolt, dampers necking out on the bracket etc. that it is very unlikely that it will be possible to conclusively prove a defective design.

[ScottR400D]

"......this failure could well be induced by over torquing that bolt, dampers necking out on the bracket etc."

Could be, but those things are easily within 'reasonably foreseeable misuse' I would think and could have been allowed for during development? 

 

[ScottR400D]

"......this failure could well be induced by over torquing that bolt, dampers necking out on the bracket etc."

Could be, but those things are easily within 'reasonably foreseeable misuse' I would think and could have been allowed for during development? 

 

[SamC]

Yeah, 100% true.

Don't misread my post above as me thinking it is anything other than a terrible, compromised, design, just that it's unlikely they will roll over and accept it.

[PlastererPete]

It is most definitely a terrible design, I don't think it would've taken much more time to design it a bit beefier. Even just by elongating the "hoops" and putting a longer bolt through the bottom of the shock to allow it to withstand more force and counteract the potential heavy handed mechanic when he overtightens it. 
 

Luckily I have changed mine out of precaution and the ones that came off don't seem to be fractured, but who knows if its microscopic already and I can't see it. 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

The main thing in a redesign is to get rid of the awful collet, it is totally unnecessary if the proper tolerances are used on the clevis and the damper bush is just fitted and tightened with a standard nut and bolt. All the excess hoop stress in the clevis holes that the tapered collet introduces is then alleviated and the clevis hole is smaller too, giving it extra strength over the current design.

[David aka Blue7]

I also agree with para 3 of #113

I must admit that reading all the comment, and there is a lot of it, to an extent I agree with SamC #114, in addition to a material failure, there is a distinct possibility that the bolt was over-torqued.

These cars are so regularity played with and adjusted by enthusiasts and non Caterham approved garages, this failure could well be induced by over torquing that bolt, dampers necking out on the bracket etc. that it is very unlikely that it will be possible to conclusively prove a defective design.

However, I have had my CSR since new, I have never touched those bolts and I doubt if the Caterham approved garage Dreadnought or my present garage would have touched them either.  My car has never been tracked and only 16k miles in 8 years.  So that reverts back to the build, which in the case of a CSR is always Caterham (with maybe one exception).  So some Technicians at Caterham may have over-torqued the bolts on some cars and other technicians may have used the correct torque? 

Personally, I am not attributing blame to CC, I detest the "blame culture" and CC would not have intentionally designed a duff bracket, although looking at it, my opinion is that it is a sort of bolt on addition which should have been an integral part of the upright assembly.  What I am really concerned about is getting the message out there to all CSR owners to prevent accidents which may result in not only death / injury to CSR drivers / passengers but also other car drivers / pedestrians that may be unfortunate enough to be involved.

I seem to recall reading on one thread that Team Leos discovered the problem years ago when racing CSRs which is why they re-designed a better more robust bracket?  It is odd that all the original OEM brackets seem to be failing now, ... please don't reply saying CLIMATE CHANGE

David

 

[MarkTheGoose]

#91 - thanks John, I reported yesterday and received this by email today (John has clearly now seen enough people saying something to raise the issue with Caterham):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mark

Further to your submission.
We have opened an investigstion with the manufacturer and will advise you in due course.
Thank you, Regards

John Corcoran | Vehicle Safety & Market Surveillance Engineer
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Berkeley House, Croydon Street, Bristol, BS5 0DA

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In terms of an outcome, I sort of don't need Caterham to magically replace all of the CSR damper clevis (what's the plural) out there, but do expect them to at least let as many people as possible know that there might be an issue and that they should get it checked and then make sure that they actually have some spares in stock. My journey down this path (my failure happened in mid 2020) was that I contacted Caterham for a replacement damper clevis and they said that they didn't have any and wouldn't get any, unless I could order at least 10 (in which case they would get Titan to make some more). They said that I could buy a complete rear hub off the race CSR (which includes the clevis) - for £1,800/side - but I wasn't about to spend £3,600 on the problem. I then embarked on trying to find an alternative and after much help from this forum - including offers to machine them for me, discovered Luke @ Leos and his remanufactured parts. Luke even sent me an image of one fitted to a race CSR, that had been involved in a 'minor racing incident', showing how strong his part was ...

[Jonathan Kay]

"Clevises"

Jonathan

[SamC]

Just registered mine with the DVSA.

[David aka Blue7]

Has anyone been keeping a record of failures to date?  Stefan Heth might be the best person given he compiled the register of CSR owners and I think his records showed that 482 CSRs were built in total.

As far as publicising this matter, I seem to recall a past survey of members that indicated only a minority of members actually visit the website so the majority of members will not see this thread.  In which case maybe an article should be published im Low Flying because all members receive and read it?

David

[David aka Blue7]

Looking at the three threads I count 10 instances of clevis failure that we know of:

Mark

Jimmy Stew

Gareth H

SamC

Croc (CSR260 2010)

Steve sjmmarsh (CSR260 2007 54k miles)

James shortshift: Just come across another identical failure on a CSR this morning

Chris Hardman

David Blue7 (2015 16k miles)

Eccles

An interesting remark by Mark 27/07/20  contacting CSR Race Teams, It turns out that for racing CSR's the part failing where mine has is relatively common.  Anyway, as a consequence, Luke Stevens of Team Leos keeps the damper clevis in stock - he's had them remanufactured from a better quality material.

David

Edited to add Eccles