Wheres best to buy a circa 250 BHP Duratec from? and a few other related questions..

[The Pikey]

I'm thinking of a new build and want to do it my way so where is best to get a 250 bhp or there abouts Duratec from? I will get a new Arch chassis so I'll need duratec engine mounts for the imperial chassis too, who does them? Also what throttle bodies are best? and what ECU is best (edging toward Emerald currently) Do I want a five or six speed? Whats the best sump system? I have seen Racelines wet sump but read a horror stories about them too, any truth in that?

 

What else do I need to know?

 

I'm guessing this will be the first in a long list of questions...

 

thanks

Jason

 

 

 

Edited by - jason fletcher on 2 Jul 2010 20:11:34

[dannylt]

There is no "best" answer to most of your questions, it just comes down to preference. Almost any of the available throttle bodies will allow 250bhp. Pretty much any ECU will do the job. For gearbox, ideally you'd try both and choose. In the end, it will be down to whoever builds the engine for you, and what they're most familiar with.

 

I would definitely get a dry sump though :-)

[Pendennis]

Arch also manufacture the Raceline Duratec engine mount, these are definetly what you want

 

Jenvey DTH TB's are probably the best, spec the size to engine as they may influence driveability of your unit.

 

ECU, take your choice.

 

6 speed box will always be best.

 

Raceline wet sump is the dogs dangelies, don't know what you read but they are superb. If there was any early issues there certainly not there now.

 

Engine developer or bits, well take your choice of the top boys if you ask me

 

 

 

Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset?

[raw]

Jason

Speak to Ammo at Raceco re Duratec. I have one of his engines (210bhp version) which is great and Ammo knows his stuff. I'll be at The Boat on Wednesday if you want to have a chat.

 

Andrew

[Markiebabes]

Jason

Speak to Carl "Mad Hatter" on here his car is going in to have more power implanted 😬

 

Mark

 

Penn7's area Stuff

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^{_{R400 pure fun ( more so with Aero fitted ) Webshots here}}

[7 wonders of the world]

Just done this 😬

 

Engine mounts and short belhousing = Raceline

 

Everything else speak to Ammo @ Raceco

 

Drop me a mail offline and I'll give you the full breakdown and share some 'sump' learnings too. 😳

 

Gearbox - 5 speed which either Tran X straight cut or SPC Trakcsport semi heli internals ideally with an alloy case too you'll be kicking out circa 180+ lb/ft of torque so you do not need a 6 speed.

 

cheers

 

Too young to be old !

 

Edited by - 7 wonders of the world on 2 Jul 2010 21:42:47

[The Pikey]

Thanks for the replies. 7 Wonders YHM.

 

Jason

Speak to Ammo at Raceco re Duratec. I have one of his engines (210bhp version) which is great and Ammo knows his stuff. I'll be at The Boat on Wednesday if you want to have a chat.

 

Andrew

---

 

Andrew

 

will you have your 7 with you at the Boat?

 

Jason

 

 

[paul jacobs]

I would certainly go along with the advice to use an uprated 5 speed box. The ratios on the 6 speeder are far to close for a torquey motor like the Duratec. I dumped the supplied 6 speed on my 260 CSR and fitted a BGH 5 speed in a Quaife alloy casing and haven't ever regretted it.

 

As a matter of interest, what's the matter with Caged metric chassis, is it that they are welded or something else?

 

Paul J.

 

[The Pikey]

Paul

 

I just like the Arch stuff and consider it to be much better quality that the metric ones. It's a joy of ownership thing and I must get it right and make this one a 'keeper' as it will be my 5th in 3 years 😳

 

Jason

 

 

[Steve-B]

WHilst we were living in Sydney, there were a number of Westies grabbing Mazda 6 engines which are the larger Duratechs and then handing them to competent tuners to get uprated Bhp. They were going to the wrecking yards, and buying them there for $4-5K AUD (£1.5-2K) which is a very cheap way to get one, especially if the car had been written off from side/rear impact crashes.

 

Might help....

 

 

[Miltec]

Hi Jason, that would deffo take you out of class one Apparently the LSD is ok but the slicks are out.

 

Mrs Miltec want to come and drive next testday as well 😬

 

VX 1600 Live Axle

T440LKK

[dannylt]

Jason - my first engine was a 250bhp 2.3 Duratec built by Mick Attree with Jenvey throttle bodies and an MBE. The uprated 5 speed box suited it perfectly, and it had very smooth driveability from idle with no real camminess - very like a production engine.

 

Since this was my first Caterham I soon succumbed to the upgradeitis, and now have a 300+ bhp RaceCo 2.2, with Emerald ECU and Ammo's throttle body kit, and lots of other stuff that was developed along the way. It's got nowhere near the same smooth low rev manners though, and could possibly benefit from a 6 speed box to keep the revs up. If you want 270+ bhp, I would go with someone who has done quite a few of them and, otherwise you are paying for research and development!

 

Edited by - dannylt on 3 Jul 2010 10:15:43

[Racing Snake]

Jason - You need to speak to Simon Armstrong at Ultimate Performance

He is just about to build me a new Duratec engine

He is the guy who machines the R500 head for Caterham, which is a phase 1.

They go up to phase 4(very tricky)

And he is about to start making some seriously trick throttle bodies.

Worth a visit, just check out his back ground

His prices are good too

If you want to know more b/mail me and i will send my phone number back

Will be at Millwood tomorrow if you are there

 

---

Mad Hatter Racing - Feel The Duralight R Torque 😬 Carl @ Penn 7's Caution - May Contain Nuts !

[ruff seven]

I also have one of Ammo,s 300+ bhp 2.2 Duratecs with a 60g box, all I can say Its superb, just eats up the mountain section of the TT course like nothing else. as a proffesional engine builder myself I looked into who was doing whot with Duratecs and heart and head steered me to Raceco.

[Pendennis]

If this is to be a competition Caterham, a 6 speed box will 'always' be more beneficial than a 5 speed.

180lbs of torque will not substitute the engine lag that would occur when gear ratios are unnecessarily wide. Keeping a competitive engine on the money will always be quicker than losing time with gear change.

Also, a 6 speed box is stronger than a 5 speed because the transmission endured wheel torque will be less.

However, if the car is mainly road going and your a lazy bar steward fit a four speed or better still get Caterham to design an automatic 😬

 

Finally, my previous engine was similar spec to what your thinking of Jason, in competition it destroyed the BGH 5 speed type 9 and the Quaife type 9 pro-box needed two rebuilds per season, unless it's dog gear I wouldn't use one

 

 

Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset?

 

Edited by - Pendennis on 3 Jul 2010 20:23:34

[The Pikey]

pendennis

 

very intresting comments re the 5 speed Vs 6 speed box.

 

thanks

Jason

 

 

[7 wonders of the world]

Pendennis,

 

Were not talking about the standard CC 5 speed offering that has OE Ford ratios which even in BGH tweaked format are still way off.

 

Whilst your changing gear with your 6 speeder your not being driven forward, therefore if you can cut a gear change out without falling out of the useable power band all the better,

 

A decent 5 speed box will have less rotating inertia than the 6 speed therefore enabling faster changes that impose less strain on the components (assuming simialr ratios) and in alloy case form is lighter than the 6 speed too.

 

If your looking for track use then theres a raft of ratio options available for the 5 speed from Tran X so you can custom select the right ones for your application, final drive, tyre size etc etc. for road use SPC's Tracsport clusters (new not reclaimed) offer a bombproof solution whislt engineering ou pretty much all of the quaife quirks, there are currently only availble in heli syncro though Steve is planning an all singing straight cut set with dog option too.

 

 

Too young to be old !

[Pendennis]

I am not talking about the CC 5 speed either. Your referring to a T9 which I have used in competition for years, mainly BGH and Quaife. Both, IMHO are not up to the job except the dog box versions made by Quaife/Tran X, otherwise your looking at regular rebuilds. However, as I said roadgoing should not be an issue, but if competition is it's intended use then choose wisely. Installing transmission into a Seven that has these torque figures nowadays is a problem, that's why Quaife have designed their new boxes based on T9 casing's.

 

If we considered gear ratios (whatever they maybe) 2nd, 3rd and 4th on a T9 type box, but employ 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th over that overall range, they would be closer cut thus your engine would have less lag. I appreciate your thought about time spent selecting an additional gear versus engine lag over that overall range, heard and read the same comment many times, but from my competition experience my Caterham is quicker having to change gear more times with a closer set of ratios.

Ask yourself, why do Caterham put a 6 speeder in their Superlights

 

Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset?

[Mavic82]

 

 

"Ask yourself, why do Caterham put a 6 speeder in their Superlights"

 

Cos they want to sell 'their' gearboxes

 

6 speed is perfect in a K with a narrow power band and low torque, Druatec? I guess that would be personal choice and depend more on cams and how flat and wide the power band was.

 

Competely agree on the chassis though Jason. Arch make a 'proper' chassis made by skilled craftsmen rather than mass produced welded stuff. Not to mention sitting in the new chassis's somethng just feels different, sonething about the geometry is just not quite the same.

 

Guy

[Pendennis]

Of course they want to sell their gearboxes, why wouldn't they Be a bit daft making their own gearboxes and selling someone else's, don't you think 😬 But why make them in 6 speed, when they could be made in 4 or 5

 

Yes, Quaife supply them their modern sequential now, how many gears has that got

 

And why 😬

 

Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset?

 

Edited by - Pendennis on 4 Jul 2010 11:46:01

[dannylt]

I guess I should add that my 5-speed box is an alloy cased straight cut dog-box T9. It handled 225 lbft from my 2.5 engine, and looked ok when rebuilt apart from rounded dogs. I now only have 200 lbft, and it still seems fine. The diff was much more messy though!

[AMMO]

Jason

 

I've had a BGH 5 speed in my road car for several years . It works fine. It is probably not up to the abuse it may get in racing but it is OK for the occasional track day. In racing you would probably kill the syncros pretty quickly.

 

I like it because it is quiet. A straight cut box would drive me nuts after five minutes (OK for track only use though). Mine has a higher first and second. Third and fourth are standard. I could have had a lower fifth but preferred to leave the road ratio in for going down motorways.

 

For trackdays you can get around most circuits using just third and fourth with the occasional use of second for getting out of some slow corners. I'm not a great driver buy manage to get past and out-drag most things.

 

These boxes are affordable. I think mine came to around £1,000.00 to modify including an alloy casing. This is a bargain basement gearbox which suits the budget of many of my customers. If money is no object then I think that you can buy a super duper six peed for around £6,500.00 or there abouts. Most people don't want to spend this much on an engine let alone a gearbox.

 

The BGH is OK for road engines up to around 250 bhp to maximum of 280 bhp with some trackday use. There are plenty of my engines going around with these.

 

For racing or only track use I would suggest something stronger, probably straight cut, probably (but not necessarily) six speed.

 

My engine has 263 bhp and 185 ft.lb of torque. I'm not about to rush out and buy a six speed as I don't feel I need one for the use I put it to.

 

At the end of the day everyone is different and you need to make your own decisions of what suits you best.

 

The good thing about this forum is that people can give you their personal experiences and you can make a decision from there.

 

 

 

Ammo

Raceco.com

[tiddy1]

I run a 5 speed SPC box with my 200 bhp duratec and find that really good for all road use and track days, I went that route as if I had put the standard caterham 6 speed in I would have had to change the diff as well, (currently 3.92)

 

Simon

 

[Pendennis]

Here's a vid of my 260bhp/185lb 2L Duratec Superlight during a recent race with BARC. The Caterham has a six speed box which complements my power band very well. Note, when on song the drop in revs between changes, it's less than a 1000rpm.

 

 

Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset?

[The Pikey]

Hi all,

 

thanks very much for all the comments and I have finally made a decition on the engine.. I'm going to do one myself. I was driving past Powertorque today so I dropped in and a deal was done on a tuner spec Duratec. Now all I need to do is figure out how and what what to use..... Something else to learn about, how exciting!!!

 

Also thanks for the comments on the gearbox. I think a 5 speed will be better for this mainly road going but some track day car so I have spoken to BGH and I am happy with what they can offer me.

 

Jason

 

Jason