Duratec 2 litre at Emerald today

[DaveK]

As an aside , when balancing an engine that is being built from scratch, in what order are the parts balanced ?

 

Dave

[moosetestbestanden]

I have 2.1 that has been sitting under my bench at work for some time. Basically a bored 2 litre. It has more capacity, compression and cam than my engine as the customer is going to run it on the race track and with high octane fuel all the time. I was told it had to make 265 bhp. Somehow I think it will make more!

 

 

Waiting for Dave Walker to get his finger out and get his Superflow engine brake sorted so we can map it. Hefully next month.

 

😬

 

Actually I think there may be a track day at Woodbridge this weekend. And the weather is fab here today. Let's hope it stays like this for a while.

 

That sounds like the return of some enthusiasm.

 

Complimenti Ammo, an outstanding result. It is said that torque wins races but for me short stroke and high revs have always been my 1st choice. I'm realllly looking forward to what's coming up. Now get out there and enjoy the weather. I can't think of much finer than an Apryl blat, even when it's Sept. 😬

 

-------

Chris

Ad majorem 7 gloriam

[Pat the Plumber]

somebody has to ask, how much to upgrade from a R400 2 litre (212bhp), to the 250 bhp.

only curious ....honest 😬

 

 

Duratec is the way forward!!

[Graham Perry]

As the car has everything in place already I would imagine it would be very cost effective

[dickbowyer]

Upgraditis already Pat

 

Dick

Superlight SV Duratec R400

[Pat the Plumber]

always wanted the magic figure of 250, and it would suit the registration number, making it 500 bhp per tonne, would be a blur when you put ur foot down.

may even get more miles to the gallon, with an indivual map

 

Duratec is the way forward!!

[Jason Plato]

great result Ammo

 

Puts it right on par with an 1800 k series

 

 

I'll get me coat *wink* .........

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia rear gunner

 

[S47zz]

Ammo - DaveJ

What's the cost compared to a similar powered K?

I'm sure plenty would be interested in a direct comparison

[Jason Plato]

probably similiar Mal for the internal parst - the costs of parts is very similar - rods, pistons, bearings cams, springs, head bolts, flywheel , clutch and of course you would need to port the head. Although I suspect the Duratec wouldnt need larger valves inserting so saving £500 over a K series and you wouldnt need to have uprated block such as scholar 82mm for the K series @ £600 and you dont need a dry sump @ £1700.

 

The big difference is that the K series engine flex's a lot under the loads of 170lb torque and 230 ++ bhp, this flexing reduces the life of the engine and increases the frequency of rebuilds - I imagine the duratec to be much more rigid and at least three times the lengths of time / mileage between rebuilds / inspection @ 250bhp.

 

I'm sure Ammo can provide a more detailed quote including labour

Dave

 

Taffia rear gunner

 

[simonbell]

Ammo

 

Great result, similar to my ultimate plans.

 

Simon Bell - Caterham 7 Duratec R

I`ve seen the future.....and it`s powered by duratec Check out the website here

[dannylt]

The K also has more piston speed wear/stress with 89mm stroke vs 83mm, and probably also needs more than 8500rpm too?

[AMMO]

Danny

 

In the Duratec the 2 litre rod is longer than in the K and the rod ratio is better too.

 

As for the cost of upgrading a 2 litre it depends what you have got to start with. My 210 engines have minimal porting but the 220 engines would require no additional porting as they are already up to the job. You need Arrow rods at £795.00 and Omega pistons at £400.00 + VAT. Cams are £400.00 and porting if you need it another £400.00. I now also have Carrillo rods at £595.00 if you want to save a couple of hundred quid. I don't stock the crap rods that people get from eBay as I don't want me or any of my customers sitting in a car when the rod lets go at 8,500 / 9,000 rpm.

 

There was a guy who came punting some of the Chinese stuff at work and even he said he wouldn't use them in a race engine. His precise words were "OK for the customer that wants something better than standard". I have always used either Arrow or Carrillo for the last 21 years and I haven't had a single failure. Too set in my ways to change. The additional cost of quality components made out of material that is certified and traceable far outweighs the saving in cost.

 

I'm telling you all this before some smart Alec tells me it can be done cheaper. Sure it can be done cheaper but I like to do it properly.

 

The bottom line is that a 250 bhp Duratec is not that expensive compared to the cost of a 240 bhp R500 from a few years ago. I'm building a similar engine for a customer at the moment, identical to mine but with slightly less cam as his power requirements are less. The bill is slightly over £7,000.00 + VAT. That is a wet sump engine with flywheel and clutch. I suppose I could put it in the price list at £6,995.00 + VAT just like the pros do. In fact I think I will! I think an R500 engine was 12K + VAT? Don't know what a 250 bhp K-Series would cost ouright from a reputable source like Oily as I have nothing to do with K's and don't know what they actually cost.

 

Chris

 

Grazie per i complimenti. Actually the weather is very like Apryl at the moment. Bright and sunny. 😬

 

AMMO

[Pat the Plumber]

would all this work with the strandard plenum chamber, or would you have to go with throttle bodies, and presumably an emerald.

if it would work on the stanard set up what sort of power reduction would it make, compared to your set up

 

Duratec is the way forward!!

[AMMO]

Pat

 

My engine has direct to head throttle bodies.

 

Never tested a head with a plenum on the flowbench to see what its potential could be. You might be able to get 250 bhp. I don't know. It might be worth a try. There was a guy who was going to send me a complete induction system to test but it never showed up.

 

If anybody has converted to direct to head or roller bodies and has a complete CSR 200 plenum, throttle body and filter lurking around I'd really like to borrow it to do some flow testing.

 

Thanks

 

AMMO

[DaveK]

Ammo

 

The other single plenum on the market is the Cosworth D power, Burtons have it listed in there 07 cat with the option of long trumpets (2ltr 195bhp) or short trumpets (2.3 200-240bhp), iirc this also uses a 67mm throttle body.

 

I am looking at fitting a 2ltr into the back of an Elise, the problem seems to be that with throttle bodies the rampipes come through the bulkhead, so a single plenum may be the answer for up to approx 220bhp.

 

I have some pics of the csr200 plenum if they are of any use

 

Dave

[AMMO]

Dave

 

Thanks for that Please send plenum pics to raceco@btinternet.com

 

What would be interesting is to see what can be done to a CSR 200 retaining the plenum. The flowbench will give me a good idea if it is a non starter or what the potential power would be. Touring cars make good power with plenums and single large throttle bodies, so not to be discounted.

 

I think Guy Evans at Nitron cut the bulkhead on his car whereas Geary at Elise Parts used the shorty roller barrels. A plenum would be a good idea in the Elise to reduce noise as it could be quite a pain to listen to the induction right behind your head. I have pic of Guy's installation but have never seen any of Geary's although I built some ten engines for him. He has now stopped doing the Duratec conversion so there is a gap in the market for somebody doing an Elise conversion. Is the conversion you are doing for yourself? I could quite fancy a Mk 1 Elise with a Duratec.

 

AMMO

[DaveK]

Pics on the way

 

Dave

[mav]

I can get you plenty more pics if you need them Ammo.

 

If you come to brands on 26th, you are welcoem to poor over my CSr 200 and maybe even take the plenum away with you for testing.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

[Dobuy]

I'm telling you all this before some smart Alec tells me it can be done cheaper

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Alaskossie]

My Duratec 2.3 with dry sump and roller-throttle bodies from Cosworth USA (which I am in the process of installing in my new Series 3 Seven) was invoiced to me in April 2007 at $14,179.00, not including freight. This price did not include the clutch, flywheel or wiring loom.

 

The initial dyno run by Cosworth yielded 244 hp, so I am hoping that after running-in, it will give its advertised 250 hp.

 

Tom Meacham

Alaskossie

[dannylt]

I watched a 2 litre peugeot make 275bhp on a plenum at Track'n'Road while I was waiting. Only downside seemed to be the 3000rpm idle .

[AMMO]

Dave K

 

Tried sending you this email but it bounced back twice.

 

Dave

 

Thanks for the pics. The tape measure was really useful. Induction length is a bit on the short side but until I do the flowbench testing I have no idea what the potential of the plenum is. It would be useful to know what the butterfly diameter is in the throttle body.

 

It would be great if I could lay my hands on a complete set up to see what it flows. Even perhaps stick it on my engine and take it down to Emerald.

 

I could be tempted to go for a plenum and single body on my own car if the induction noise was much lower.I could probably afford to lose 10 bhp and not really miss it. So if we could convert the CSR 200 to a 240 bhp 2 litre with a standard plenum it would be quite interesting.

 

Geary's conversion for the Elise requires chunks and lugs being taken off of the block for it to fit. It has the alternator lugs on the exhaust side removed and part of the block next to the bellhousing is scolloped. Just another useful snippet! I think I built him a total of about ten engines so if one of the owners is close to you you could maybe get to have a better look if you haven't seen one already.

 

Ammo

 

Mav

 

Thanks for the offer. I may well take you up on that.

 

Tom

 

Thanks for the info.

 

AMMO

[AMMO]

Have uploaded the graph of the engine to www.dyno-plot.co.uk and compared it to the 210 and 220 engines.

 

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/dynoplot/id%3D449_226_219%26sort%3Drec%26but_sea%3Dqs%26sea_simple%3Draceco/index.htm

 

AMMO

[Darren Harrold]

Ammo, I have a complete CSR 200 plenum, throttle body and filter lurking around that i can lend you.

 

Darren

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Darren Harrold on 16 Sep 2007 14:59:42

[mav]

Ammo,

 

If you need more pics, let me know. I guess the ones Dave sent may be the ones I took for him of my car...