Mike Biddle Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Not wishing to Pi$$ on everybodies parade, I've got the best of both worlds with the RST V8! Bike engine technology in a car engine, Light weight, loads of power, and it really sounds sweet at 10K RPM! Docile around town at low RPM with enough torque to pull smoothly. By the way, Russell tells me that some loony is going to put one in a BIKE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Molloy Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 I think the Blackbird problem is more about damage to the integral gearbox rather than the Nova reverse box. It isn't designed to cope with all that inertial mass and the dogs wear more rapidly than normal. Seems to be common for engines that are raced or used heavily on track. Doug Newman upgraded to the Nova Racing gearset to combat this (as reported in a Low Flying article about his "Super Blackbird" about 3 years ago). Clutchless up-shifts might also be a contributory factor. It would appear the Busa gearbox is substantially stronger. Although rare in Caterham applications, there are loads fitted to Westfields and assorted race cars. Haven't heard of many failures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 I think we're all very envious of your RSTV8 Mike (B)! It's in a different league in all respects, sadly including £££s... If I had lots of £££s to spare I'd get Force to build me a nice featherweight single seater hillclimb car and stick a 2-litre RSTV8 in the back. Mmmmm. Dree-ee-ee-ee-eeeeam, dream dream dream dream.... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Piper Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Mike Biddle - that's a nice car you've got there - but I'm intrigued to know just how well the blue paint on the exhausts is wearing...and did anything drop off it in the USA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Those Nova gear sets are nearly £2000 I wonder if the standard Honda ones are not undercut, as the GSX-R1000 dogs are undercut as standard on the drive face above 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 Mike, what does your RST V8 weigh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbirdman Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 The standard Blackbird gears are not under cut. I've just changed 4th and 5th. The dogs so wear and it's 4th that seems to be a weak spot. However this was ofter three years of hard track use so can't complain too much. The Nova gear set is tempting but costs as mucha s two spare engines . The clutch plates had hardly worn at all but the inner part of the clutch basket takes a beating as the steels bang back and forth as you go on and off the power. The steels put marks in the side of the grooves and this can stop the plates sliding freely. However this can be cleaned up with a file or a second hand part at £50. Matt Life begins at 10,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 Is the RSTV8 really a step forward. I know that it sounds great and I'm sure in a straight line it's awesome, but when it comes to handling does it reallly work 🤔 TRY 5S Buzzin' Bee It's never too late for a happy childhood *cool* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSL Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Having seen it at Curbuger this summer, no is the short answer. Then again in a stripped out chassis, good suspension, properly set up, right tyres etc etc it may well be the nuts for the majority of sprinting / trackwork, still dont think it would beat a class 6 busa at Curbuger though 😬 😬 Best ask Mr Jackson for his thoughts, I am sure he will be along in a minute with his take on this question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 Mr Jackson *eek* TRY 5S Buzzin' Bee It's never too late for a happy childhood *cool* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSL Posted November 3, 2005 Share Posted November 3, 2005 Well in class 5, we all call him that or Sir 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andygriffiths Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 I agree Darren the answer is no.In a straight line though it would be nice to wave it goodbye 😬 GRIFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stijn LUYCK 1 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Let's see what it does over the weekend ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 The RST V8 engine weighs about the same as a Kseries . its position in the chassis is about the same as a K series so technically there is no reason why the car should not handle the same as a well setup k series. If we are to base all conclusions on the cars ( and my ) performance at Curborough then I think that would rash and unfair to the car . All the ingredients are there for stunning performance - if you can get them all the gel. The car needs adequate rubber , decent suspension setup, quick rack (to simply catch the inevitable slides) decent gearbox (rather than the agricultural Quaife sequential) and decent gearing (only used second gear around curborough (and this was too tall) . To simply say "the RST doesnt handle" is wrong - it just needs to be set up like any other car . I have to say tho , its blooody hard to drive around a short sprint course- the power comes in so fast and hard that it completly overwhelmes the car - you loose traction on about 20% throttle . If it was at a fast course like Aintree then it would be different. Traction was so difficult that I couldnt even give it full beans on the straight bits and hence a very poor speed across the line ( 109 mph I recall ?) At the end of the day is simply another caterham with a 85Kg engine and seqential box , but it has tons of power . There is no technical reason why it can not be steup to handle as good as any other Caterham. You boys know that a good sprint car is all about the total package and getting all the ingredients in the right proportions to make a ballanced package . Given some time there can be no doubt that the RST would be very potent and fast. The only downside could be that it actually has too much power - but I guess there are worse things in life to be concerned about if I had the $$$$ then the RST engine would be top of my list - and I bet you agree with that one . Hopefully we will have it out again next season ( wink wink Russ Savoury ) at some other venues so we shall see . ta Dave(sir/Mr J ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 The standard Blackbird gears are not under cut. Wonder if this something to do with the blackbird being seen as a very fast "tourer" than a trackday bike ? Here is a very techy question, I can understand why the dogs are undercut on the drive face, but what is the point of undercuting the overrun ? Any use in a BEC, or just for bikes with a slipper clutch ? The clutch plates had hardly worn at all but the inner part of the clutch basket takes a beating as the steels bang back and forth as you go on and off the power. I looked at a billet clutch basket to try to beef the thing up, but was £500 ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Hello again!Sorry I,ve not been part of the above for a few days but have just had the pleasure(yes,seriously!)of a cruciate ligament reconstruction by fellow Caterham owner Paul Gibb.A seriously gifted yet modest man-thanks again mate for all your help!Infact if he had any time to spare Paul would be enthusing about his own 270h.p.Swindon-engined VX,a better track-day tool you'd be lucky to drive.I have been fortunate enough to pilot this very car for a few laps at Llandow recently and it certainly opened my eyes to the relative merits of VX power!Seamless power delivery with a top-end rush,rather like a large motorcycle engine perhaps!Despite the extra weight,handling was especially neutral with turn-in and braking the best I've ever tried on any Caterham.Taking this car as an example,to purchase a similar,say Duratec 270h.p.car with proper suspension,wheels,brakes etc etc,the costs are going to be very similar to a 250h.p.Hayabusa-engined version.The difference in overall performance would not be down to the fact that the BEC has a 40k.g.weight advantage but more to do with time gained shifting up and down the best gearbox available.This "ease of use" factor leads to an increase in confidence and a race-car feel that I don't think you can achieve with the gearboxes currently used in conjunction with car-derived units.Also fine IMHO for road use . '......in yer bike!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blade_runner Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Bec's = cheap road tax too 'Pinky Pics' here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 difference in overall performance .... more to do with time gained shifting up and down the best gearbox available.This "ease of use" factor leads to an increase in confidence and a race-car feel that I don't think you can achieve with the gearboxes currently used in conjunction with car-derived units.Also fine IMHO for road use . do you think this is the most underated gain on a BEC ? what do you reckon each gearchange is worth over my (and every other) H pattern ? - 3 meters or 0.2 seconds per shift ? Edited by - Dave Jackson on 4 Nov 2005 11:15:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Interesting observations about the gear box and shift time. I know from my own semi helical box that I must loose tine changing gear cause it can be a pig to get 3rd at full beaNS. Given that that you can fit paddle shift to the elite box, do you think this would then close the gap for a VX/ K to a BEC. would we then see wgat the weight saving really gives to the car. I am assuming the elite box would remain reliable. RED 2.0 HPC now on throttle bodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Dynojet have recommended a flatshift ignition kill time of 150 mS for a BEC ! And that is slow, bikes are set at 65 mS as standard. Edited by - Noger on 4 Nov 2005 11:53:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 A back to back test at a trackday between my H-pattern 6-speed and the Quaife 6-speed sequential showed that the level of concentration required to get the shifts right on the H-pattern was higher than with the Quaife. I'd probably put that down to the dog-engagement rather than necessarily the gate pattern, but the difference was marked. It just left you with much more time to concentrate with other aspects of the driving. I'm sure it is this aspect of the BECs that is both addictive and effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Try putting a 250bhp Vx through an Ital axle, for more than a few seconds Paul Harvey did and raced it very successfully for some time. Might not have been 250BHP though. I thought Lol Pilfolds car was live axled? That can't be far off 250BHP. _________ / __ __ / ___ _//__T/__/_ ___ / (_) (_)/ / /`-'/o/ _______ /o/`-'/ / /// ( VDU7X ) // / /___/--_________/--/___/ Edited by - Alex Wong on 4 Nov 2005 12:51:24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Certainly shifting with my current dog type 9 is a lot slower - side by side seemed to lose a few meters each shift - but I find it a lot more involving and fun. And much harder to take liberties changing mid-corner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 FWIW, I don't think the Elite box is hugely faster shifting than a dog shift Quaife H pattern box. A flat shift ignition cut out might make the difference though. Griffs hyabusa has a flat shift and that is amazingly fast compared to the Elite on manual shifts. One thing I have noticed is how much my arm aches after a whole days track driving with the Elite box. The pulls to upshift become quite painful by the end of the day. Because it doesn't have a very positive feel to it, I do find myself pulling on it quite firmly to upshift for fear of a false neutral. I have struggled a bit with the Elite - but I would say that now it's in and working, it is a joy to use. If it had a more positive click on up shifts, it would be even better. _________ / __ __ / ___ _//__T/__/_ ___ / (_) (_)/ / /`-'/o/ _______ /o/`-'/ / /// ( VDU7X ) // / /___/--_________/--/___/ Edited by - Alex Wong on 4 Nov 2005 12:59:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Dave-with full throttle shifting the gain over a conventional H pattern box is supposed to be somewhere between 7 and 12 feet/gear change.Bearing in mind these figures are suggested by the makers of certain quick-shift system,maybe taking the lower of the two is a fair indication of the expected gains?Still,that's a bit quicker than what you are used to Dave! 😬 The only weak link with the Suzuki gearbox in particular is a slight tendancy for the selector-fork that does 4th to 5th to wear slightly on its mating-surface.This can happen with a bike-install too,so is not directly associated with BEC applications.As I've mentioned before my engine has been 100% trouble-free for three seasons so imagine having a bog-standard 1300cc unit with electric reverse facility in a road/occasional track day car.It should last you ages and give hundreds of hours of fun *biggrin* *thumbup* '......in yer bike!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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