Audi TT engine - Anyone know anything about it?

[V7 SLR]

I have a bee in my bonnet at the mo. Thinking of going turbo and the weight of evidence supports my decision to look into the Audi TT engine (it's being used by Westfield, Grinnell, Jonathan Palmer and Donkervoort to name a few). I know this same engine can be had out of a number of different cars (Seat, VW and Audi) and various states of tune, so I wondered if anyone knew whether there was any fundamental difference between them all. I'd like to consider a high output one, circa 250bhp so I don't want to buy a low spec one thinking all I need do is pump up the turbo only to find the engine internals can't take it.

 

Any info gratefully received.

[Joost M]

Here are some companies with a lot of experience in tuning the Audi turbo engines.

 

MTM

HPG

Rothe

[Irrelevant]

A bit heavy aren't they

Unlike a Focus RS motor (Duratec Turbo) . . . .light, powerful, reliable.

 

After a hi-vis (pocketted side) driver's door if anyone's got one?

[rj]

V7,

 

I've frequently got access to the VW/AUDI parts database; I could try to check wether the internals are different for different engines... Probably a heavy job, so I'll only do it if you're serious...

 

/r

[Gambo]

I may be wrong, but from conversations I have had with tuning people, in and around places, as you do. I belive the audi/vw/seat group engines are of 2 "basic specs" the sub 200bhp and over 200bhp. the latter having a bigger turbo and intercooler, but am not sure weather the internals are different.

[rj]

I would imagine they are. I know for sure they are on the diesels; 90bhp to 110bhp and 115 to 130; they all have different cranks! Of course this could only be a trick to take more money from the costumer by having imaginative higher specs, but dare you take the risk?

/r

 

Edited by - RJ on 5 Jul 2004 20:21:09

[V7 SLR]

WOW, thanks for the reponses.

 

I am serious, but I understand why you have pressed that point. Perhaps if I try to explain what I need to do, you will see at what stage I am at.

 

1. Need to find out what spec to look at, and what it's likely cost it.

2. Need to find someone to sell one complete with ECU and turbo. I may not use the standard ECU in the end, but I'd like to perhaps install it and run it.

3. Need to find a suitable bellhousing and dry sump system.

4. Need to sell V7's VHPD-based engine. Finances need to "add up". This has to almost fund itself (I have a little to throw at it... maybe a couple of grand max above the selling price of V7's engine) therefore I'm hoping that the engine will be cheap cheap. V7's engine will be sold with complete dry sump system and all modifications. I will be fair though because I had the head modified by DVA before it was his business, therefore I do not wish to make a profit on the (superb) workmanship that went into the porting of the head. Then again, I have spent a lot in parts.

5. Need to understand whether there's a lighter flywheel or any other mods that I'll want later. Better to find out now and perhaps install them now.

 

So, you can see where I'm at. The decision is based upon the fact that quite a few others are using this engine. I do not believe that it is terribly heavy, certainly I'd expect it to be heavier than a K, but not as much as a Zetec or Vx. I have no idea about Duratecs. If other kit car manufacturers were using it, I might have considered it but they're not. I have to ask why and then turn to the Audi engine.

 

Anyway, if there was a summary of specifications and whether one manufacturer over another is preferable...

 

Thanks a lot for all your responses.

 

Edited by - V7 SLR on 5 Jul 2004 20:33:18

[Bob Corb]

I think the 150 and 180BHP are the same base engine with different calibrations in the ECU.

 

I also think the 210 and 225BHP versions are the same base engine but the 225 has twin intercoolers and a different ECU. I'll need to check the details at work (Cosworth Technology - we are Audis official engine technology outlet to smaller OEMS)

 

Fitting one in a seven wont be easy unless you either use a Donkervoort or Westfield adapted Audi ECU and loom or switch to something like Motec ECU. Audi Holland had input into the engine of the Westfield according to the bloke on the Autosport stand (I assume they also did Donkervoort).

 

Donkervoort appear to use the same Ford 5 speed box as a Roadsport so they must have a bellhousing to suit. The VAG group dont have any gearboxes which you could use for a RWD install (apart from the LTvan and I doubt the ratios would be right!)

 

Sounds a bit sad but I was wondering if a K 1.8 Turbo from a 75 would fit?? Should be easy enough?

 

BC

[davidvoas73]

Hi,

 

You might want to have a chat with Bernard Scouse. 250 or 300+ BHP here

 

On second thoughts, it looks like a tight squeeze.

 

Edited by - wavydavy on 5 Jul 2004 20:41:50

[Luke Beaumont]

> I have no idea about Duratecs. If other kit car manufacturers were using it,

> I might have considered it but they're not.

 

Westf1eld are using it, and it can't be long before the Duratec becomes a common kit car sight when you've got all the installation ancilliaries available from Raceline. 250bhp is a walk in the park for a 2.3 Duratec.

[Bare]

Suggest persuing the Duratec/Mazda/Ford engine route.. the VW units are (in my part of the world at least) proving to be rather unloved... for the usual VW/Audi reasons.

LOTS cheaper too, and likely to stay that way.

[V7 SLR]

I've just emailed Bernard. Seems a nice installation in his pictures.

[STEVE GILBERT]

V7

 

I had a ride with Bernard in a 250bhp Audilise at the 'Dyno Curry 3' at Emerald.

 

What a cracking car

 

If I could get up enthusiasm for Elise ownership over the Blade, at 7.5k the conversion is great value.

 

Probably cheaper than K upgrade

 

Anyway it was one fecking quick Elise

 

Steve

 

See My Caterham Fireblade Here.

[Chris__]

Try speaking to Vince at a place called Stealth Racing in Southam Nigel. They did the engine conversion on my Golf, and do DTA mapping on kit cars, and have done many 1.8T conversions on Golfs, Corrados etc. They know the specs inside out. 275bhp on a Cupra R engine, with just a remap is easily achievable. Revotech mapping comes recommended from quite a few people I know through the GTI scene.

 

There is apparently a list of all the differences between 1.8T variants online somewhere... I'm trying to find it.

 

Chris.

[robert heywood]

chris, stealth racing are customers of mine (snapon tools) and vince has offered to drop the audi lump into my 7 on several occasions, got as far as measuring things up once....

bob, according to stealth there is a gear box that will fit but i cannot remmember the one we came up with...

v7, speak to vince at stealth, they know the differece's between the engines, unbustable buggers they are as well.

 

if you need there number drop me a line

[tom7]

Nig,

I am sure dave and Karl at Emerald are into Audi engines in a big way.

Thats if the complete RS4 engine and transmission in his cupboard was anything to go by. I was told Karl was going to transplant it into his Ur Quattro at some stage. Might be worth having a chat with them

The 150bhp unit in my A4 is OK at low rpm but gets a bit coarse at higher revs. Standard dual mass flywheel is shi!te, although it does give VW's sh!te gearbox a chance to catch up 😬 Overall I'm pretty impressed with its smoothness.

Tom

[Chris__]

What Are The Differences Between The 150, 180, 210 And 225 Bhp Vag 1.8 Turbo Engines?"

 

All the engines are basically the same but there are some important differences to account for their varying outputs.

 

For the Octavia alone, there actually seem to be three types of the 150 bhp engine. The AGU engine is the 1.8T engine in the pre-facelift Octavia Elegance/L&K FWD. This engine utilises Borg-Warner's K03 turbo, has smaller injectors to that in the facelifted cars and does not feature variable valve timing and drive-by-wire (it has an old-fashioned throttle cable instead). When tuned, this engine will not produce as much power as the later engines. 193 bhp seems to be the maximum.

 

The 150 bhp engines in the 4x4 (code ARX) and the post-facelift FWD Elegance/L&K (code AUM) seem to have basically the same inner workings as the 180 bhp engine in the RS (code AUQ). They all have bigger-sized injectors and feature the K03sport turbo. This is a hybrid turbo, using the K04 turbine in a K03 casing. The differences in power between all three engines seem to be merely ECU mapping related. Hence, these engines will produce similar gains when tuned. This is in the region of 205-225bhp.

 

The 210 and 225 bhp engines as found in the Seat Leon Cupra R, Audi S3 and Audi TT have different internals and a bigger k04 series turbo, all which allow it to produce more power. A chipped version of these engines can reach 260-270 bhp.

 

Below is a brief overview of various 1.8T engines. This is not a comprehensive overview, but it will show the differences between the main engines used by Skoda and the other VAG brands.

 

AGU

 

Skoda Octavia 1.8T FWD (Elegance, L&K), 10/96-8/00

Also found in: Audi A3 1.8T and Volkswagen Golf GTI (earlier models)

 

Output: 150 hp

Drive: FWD

Emission: Non-VVT, EU3

Throttle: cable

Injectors: small

Turbo: K03

Gearbox: EVS, EGY

 

AUM

 

Skoda Octavia 1.8T FWD (Elegance, L&K), 8/00-now

Also found in: Volkswagen Bora 1.8T and Volkswagen Golf GTI (updated models)

 

Output: 150 hp

Drive: FWD

Emission: VVT, EU4

Throttle: drive-by-wire

Injectors: big

Turbo: K03sport

Gearbox: EBN, ENJ, ESV, FDC

 

AUQ

 

Skoda Octavia RS, 8/00-now

Also found in: Seat Leon 20VT Topsport

 

Output: 180 hp

Drive: FWD

Emission: VVT, EU4

Throttle: drive-by-wire

Injectors: big

Turbo: K03sport

Gearbox: EHA (Octavia RS, 5-speed, long gearing - Leon has 6-speed 'box!)

 

ARX

 

Skoda Octavia 1.8T 4x4 Elegance, 8/00-now

 

Output: 150 hp

Drive: Haldex 4WD

Emission: VVT, EU3

Throttle: drive-by-wire

Injectors: big

Turbo: K03sport

Gearbox: FEX (5-speed, short gearing)

 

Other 1.8Ts

 

APX: Audi TT, 225 hp, Haldex 4WD, K04, 6-speed

APY: Audi S3 (earlier model), Seat Leon Cupra R (earlier model), 210 hp, Haldex 4WD, K04, 6-speed

ARY: Seat Leon 20VT Cupra 4, 180 hp, Haldex 4WD, K03sport, 6-speed

ARZ: Volkswagen Golf GTI, 150 hp, FWD, K03sport, 5-speed

AWT: Audi A4 1.8T/1.8T quattro and Volkswagen Passat 1.8T, 150 hp, FWD or Torsen 4WD, K03, 5-speed

AWU: Volkswagen New Beetle 1.8T, 150 hp, FWD, K03, 5-speed

BAM: Audi S3/TT (updated models), Seat Leon Cupra R (updated model), 225 hp, Haldex 4WD (S3/TT) or FWD (Cupra R), K04, 6-speed

BFB: Audi A4 1.8T/1.8T quattro (updated model), 163 hp, FWD or Torsen 4WD, K03sport, 5-speed

 

 

Mattijs Diepraam, July 2, 2003

---

[alicat]

Must be OK

 

Aren't Westfield using this engine 🤔

 

 

[EFA]

Derek Scarrow has developed built and run a 575bhp version of the 1.8 20v Turbon VAG engine.

 

Perhaps you should get one of those Nigel. Runs on an MBE ecu as well!

 

Ex Fat Arnie

Hauling Less Lard....

 

[V7 SLR]

Gee, no thanks. I'm hoping to stick with the caterham 6-speed box, so something around 250bhp would probably be fine.

 

Does sound like I'm after one of the TT engines though. Thanks to everyone. I'm now looking rather seriously for an engine.

 

Anyone want to buy a dry sumped VHPD with a few modifications?

[Jaseb]

My recently written off Cupra will be kicking about somewhere was a 210 but when it had the Revo playtime chip 6 hour demo fitted gave an instant 260bhp and 280lbft... 😬

 

PS the 210's have twin coolers too

[V7 SLR]

That's the one I want. If anyone knows where I might find one of those.... please get in touch.

 

I'm in the Midlands, so local sources wouldbe preferable.

 

Thanks.

[Jason Plato]

Does the exhaust come out the car in the same position as the K or will a reskin be required ?

 

does it physically fit under the bonnet and in the chassis ?

 

What starter motor are you going to use ?

 

Who is going to make the exhaust ?

 

How does the cooling system fit in the bay ?

 

Where are you going to site the turbo and intercooler

 

have you done a realistic costing ?

 

Nice concept but I think you need to up the medication first Nige

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 6 Jul 2004 11:43:38

[PaulD]

According to Bernard Scouse's website, weight increases by 50kg. Maybe more of a problem on a Seven than an Elise.

 

Paul

[Mike Molloy]

Nige,

Have you considered giving Richard Smith at Westfield a call? I had a chat with him at Autosport about the XTR4, and he said the engine was S3, but the gearbox was the longitudinal one from the S4 hence giving a tidy mid engine/rear transaxle configuration. Also said that 180 - 300 bhp was available just by plugging in your laptop.

What is the SP on FPA engines? They do 300bhp standard, with 360 available when you press the overboost button... 😬

I have seen ads from a Max Power-esque company called "Jabbasport" claiming pretty serious power (365bhp) from the Veedub lump. Limited longevity? But hey, even if it only lasted 20s they would be the best 20s of your life!