Westfield Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Fordy – what an excellent post. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Comma has access to Exxon-Mobil's research capability herring However much Comma know about their oil, unless someone paid them to test it in a particular engine they will have no research data. I have three gripes with Caterham/Comma over their oil and they are these... -the packaging does not state an ACEA or API standard, so you can't even tell what quality of oil you are buying - the viscosity grade goes against everything I know about the K-series engine - the anti-competitiveness issue that fordy has already mentioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordy Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 edited post removed, discussed with CC and will produce a factual article for low flying Edited by - fordy on 19 Mar 2004 09:03:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Gillet Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 A point that I have under the top of my head since the foam of my 1.6 K engine literally melted down on a hot weather track day. Apart from the obvious impact of high temperature which probably caused the melting down , could some oils be more agressive than others ? Edited by - Pierre Gillet on 18 Mar 2004 12:03:37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger King Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Nice to see a post from someone in the industry who isn't suffering from Gender Specific Bovine Evacuation Syndrome. I'd like to make a few comments based on the work of my extensive research facilities (not). In fact these are just empirical observations that I've made over the years: Twenty five years ago we were running full race engines on mineral oil such as Duckhams Q. We didn't really have problems but one thing thing that I have noticed with racing engines run on synthetic oil is the lack of charring and staining on some components that get particularly hot - particularly the underside of pistons. This is more noticeable on two valve engines such as the Crossflow than it is on four valve engines, because the former tend to have higher combustion chamber temperatures. Generally an engine run on synthetic is cleaner internally too. It isn't really possible to say that this is specifically down to the oil though; it is quite likely that owners who use synthetic also look after their engines better and change the oil more frequently. Ironically synthetic really does last longer, so these are the very people who don't need such frequent changes. I have deliberately run my Ford Ka on sythetic from 1000 miles and only changed the oil every 30,000 miles, just to see what would happen. So far, it's done 125,000 miles and has never needed the oil topping up between services. I don't believe it either, but it's true. With regard to viscosity, an engine with hydraulic cam followers requires the oil to act as a hydraulic fluid as well as a lubricant, so viscosity would be very important. In my case, the vast majority of hydraulic engines that I have built have been altered to solid operation by fitting purpose made solid cam followers, so viscosity requirements are not quite the same. I reckon that synthetic is worth using for race engines or those that do a lot of track days. Compared to the budget for a race season the extra cost is tiny. In addition, I have always recommended customers to use a synthetic for road use following an engine rebuild; this is mainly because they have just spent good money on an upgrade and again, the extra cost is small. In a way this is similar to the thread a few weeks ago about whether or not to fit expensive plug leads. On the other hand, I can't see any reason at all to use synthetic in an engine that has previously been run on non-synthetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puremalt Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Excellent posting guys, thanks a lot *thumbup* Mind you I have a x flow so it runs on any oil with the consistency of minestrone soup. 😳 p.s Like the Bovine Evacuation comment. Clamshells...You Know It Makes Sense Edited by - puremalt on 18 Mar 2004 15:16:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julians Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Fordy, you've probably let yourself in for a world of oil related questions now. In which case, can I be one of the first to get a question in:- My zetec 2.0 (94 vintage I think), suffers from really rattly tappets after high revs if I use anything other than the ford recomended oil viscosity (5w30). why is this? Why does a higher viscosity mean rattling tappets in the zetec of this vintage. Just curious as to whats going on inside my engine . Edited by - julians on 18 Mar 2004 15:46:55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordy Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Zetecs had a specific problem in development with oil viscosity higher that 30 grade. During that development we changed to a from a 10W-40 to a 10W-30 originally I believe, moving to a 5W-30 later. 40 grades overpressurise the hydraulic tappets. I envisage the same problems with K's (at 50 grade) unless of course you are using solid tappets (which many Caterham K's do of course as Roger pointed out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Brett Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I'm really glad I've resisted answering all the oily questions in the past. I would never have been dedicated enough to go into it in as much detail as you have. I agree with some of what you say I suppose, perhaps we need to separate the lubricant requirements for road versus racing and I guess as the vast majority of 7's have a similar duty cycle to a Mondeo, your recommendations apply. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul McKenzie Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Fordy, Yes you've let yourself in for all sorts of oily questions now I was under the impression that rattly hydraulic tappets after a good thrashing 😳 were due to the hot oil being too thin and draining from the tappets, whereas you are saying it could be caused in Zetecs by overpressuring of the tappets due to too high aviscosity of hot oil 😬 I'm confused . Could you comment 🤔 Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Has the question yet been answered as to how long one should use mineral oil to run in and if one should then go directly to fully synthetic? Know it has been asked but can't seem to find a definite answer. Also any advice Fordy on Duratec engines with uprated cams (not hydraulic valves). Richard in France Flying fast in my very bright yellow 226bhp Duratec 7, with internal kevlar/carbon panels and pushrod suspension 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Richard, I think he answered about the Duratec at the bottom of the first page Duratec Se7en, built in Dubai, pics here! Keep it sunny side up and out of the kitty litter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Fordy's right, we change our oil far too frequently and the reasons stated are correct in my case anyway. I'm "guilty" of changing oil every 3000 miles. Use Mobil 1 15/40. I think of it as an insurance policy and a way of keeping the innards clean. Small price to pay for peace of mind when youv'e spent a lot of money with Roger getting the best money can buy. I've seen engines run without (mineral) oil and the damage done. I've read reports of long term tests with Mobil 1 and engine strip downs which still show camshaft machining marks after 100,000 miles. I had a copy of a write up from the Truimph Owners web site which explained about oil. It was a US club. It gave various stats on different oils as well as explain what these meant. I was concerned at the time about my oil not getting above 50 degrees C. When I read the "rolling" point (or something like that) tempratures for Mobil 1 I stopped worrying. The site was linked from a posting on BC around January-subject oil temprature, I think. norman verona 1989 BDR 220bhp Mem No 2166 Curmudgeon in an Elise, (and 7 and Elan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordy Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 sorry guys, really haven't got time to answer all individual queries, I do also have a day job. I am writing up an article for low flying and have invited CC to be co-contributors. Sound also like Peter Brett has volunteered to review the draft eh Peter? You'd be surprised how many oily bods hang around on blatchat. We are all petrolsheads of course but mostly a bit coy..... edited posts are removed, discussed with CC and will produce a factual article for low flying Edited by - fordy on 19 Mar 2004 09:08:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveh7 Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 I never thought I would find the subject of oil interesting, I was wrong Am I alone in thinking that paying for a few litres of oil at whatever cost really is small change when you consider all the other costs of buying and running the car. What this info has done is made me realise that I really don't need to change the oil in any of my cars or bikes every 3000miles...........that is indeed a very good thing 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Board Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Peter C. You said in your reply that the viscosity goes against all you know abut K's. Just wondered if you could elaborate, and make your reccomendations. Cheers Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Brett Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Fordy Very happy to help out with article Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian.v Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I already have a stock of Shell fully synthetic 15-50W that gets used in race bike engines. As it's already sitting there, would you use it in a high-spec X-flow as against going out and having to buy another oil of similar spec 🤔 AND, what is the oil of considered choice for the above 🤔 😬 Milk chocolate hobnobs --the new currency for Europe!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Cat Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 What oil do people rate in a standard Caterham 1.7 Supersprint x-flow? I have a stash of French sourced Mobil 1 5w-40 Fully Synthetic. Is this a good or bad idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian.v Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I'm told, by some that do know, that X-flows are better with a 50 wt oil at the thick end as their clearances etc are a bit pre-historic and need something a bit treacly to fill them up. That said, it's good to have something that will let the starter do it's stuff from cold----that's where my 15-50W stash comes in 😬 Comments and views 🤔 Milk chocolate hobnobs --the new currency for Europe!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 the viscosity grade goes against everything I know about the K-series engine Fordy has covered this already. The viscosity grade is the concern of the original engine manufacturer and designer. Rover tested the k-series engine on a 40 grade oil and recommend such. A 50 grade doesn't go down well with the hydraulic tappets. Also generally a more viscous grade causes a greater temp increase in the working areas of the bearings which is undesirable. The Caterham wet sump k-series has problems keeping its oil temperatures reasonable, entirely because of windage. It is possible that caterham have viewed this as a change in operating conditions compared to Rover's tested configuration. The generally hotter oil giving an effective reduction in viscosity under operating conditions, however I prefer a different thesis... During the painful gestation of the R500, lots of engines blew up. Caterham tried an awful lot of things to solve the problem, but of course they lacked a true research facility... ... so they tried a bit of everything until a magic solution endowed their engine with some reliability. One of the things they (and the early R500 owners) tried (in combination with many others) was Mobil 1 15W50 oil. Because of their tie up with Comma they figured on a change to a Comma brand 50 grade oil... and reliability of the R500 engine did not get any worse. The 50 grade stuck and now they market it for all K-series Sevens even though it is inappropriate for hydraulic tappets and probably a 40 grade would have been fine... if not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowSeven Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 NewCat, Where exactly did you get your Mobil1 5W - 40 from? I want some!! They used to sell it in the UK do they still? Any info regarding a source for this would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Cat Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 I bought the Mobil 5w40 in a Carrefor in Calais a couple of weeks back. Its about Eur 30 (just over £20) for 4 litres but lots of places in France sell it for a similar price. I've not seen it in the UK I'm afraid, but the ferry to dover for 2 & car only cost £34 return so well worth a trip away from rip off Britain. I would guess it will be ok in my supersprint although an earlier msg seemed to suggest that under hard use the 0w50 or 5w50 would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Ask a Rover dealer what they fill the sumps with after 50,000 miles .......... 10w50 ! Its in the Rover service notes . Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankyknuckles Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 I've decided to stick with 5W/50 supplied by CC. Purely on a warranty basis. After one year of ownership, I will then consider a change. 😳 I suppose your all going to say this is a bit silly now after everything in this thread leads to a 10W/40 being a far better oil for a K Build Diary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now