1.6 K supersport upgrades - advice please!

[Adrian Bridge]

Hi - not used the forum before and new to all this so please bare with me. I have limited technical knowledge so apologies if I am asking the obvious!

Bought my first Caterham last summer from a dealer - 1996 1.6K supersport 6 speed, dry sump, superlight front suspension and de dion rear. Pirelli P 6000 (lots of tread) 195/60 R 14 front and rear. The MOT certificates suggest the car was not driven between 2007 and 2017 but the dealer apparently serviced the care before I collected it. 

Ive probably driven 1000 miles now (speedo and odometer not working for 2nd time so I dont really know!). I love it and its great fun but I don't think I am getting the best out of the car. 

The issues I have are:

1) steering and handling at speed on anything other than a flat road is all over the place. Scary in the wet. I feel more confident driving my Honda diesel. I suspect I need to get a suspension / tracking assessment performed ?

I assume Pirelli P6000 are not a good choice and that I should consider saving for a set of Avon ZZS?

2) 138 bhp when new (non cat) but I have no idea what that feels like in a Caterham. Certainly feels quick to 30 mph if you floor it and rapid at 5000-6000 rpm at speed but nothing much in between but I know the k-series lacks mid range torque. I don't know whether the engine is in a reasonable state of tune or whether the valve timing has ever been looked at. Would it make sense to consider upgrade to vernier timing pulleys at the next service? Will this make a noticeable difference to mid range performance?

3) Assuming I get the handling and service done and funds at some future date allowing, sensible upgrades would be on a wish list. I cant see my self racing and I think I would be looking for more power / torque at mid range to avoid running at 6000 + rpm on motorways etc. I've looked at the DVA power website and it looks like the choice basically boils down to Emerald ECU upgrade +- Jenvey throttle bodies or going the root of taking the head off and porting, changing cams etc. Any advice here? (apart from trading in for a 1.8K with 5 speed!)

Many thanks for your wisdom

 

[SM25T]

Welcome. Where are you based ? Is there a date on the tyres ... example 5014 = week 50 in 2014

[SM25T]

Have you checked the tyre pressures ?

[Jonathan Kay]

Welcome.

Where are you based ?

Good question: getting an experienced 7ista to drive it would be high up on my list.

... speedo and odometer not working for 2nd time

Should be fixable. What sort of speedometer drive do you have: mechanical off the gearbox, electronic off the gearbox, electronic off a wheel?

Would you like an Assembly Guide?

Happy Christmas

Jonathan

[Wrightpayne]

I have a similar spec car and three things that made a big difference are tyres( toyo R888s), 52mm throttle body and lightened flywheel.

Ian 

[Roadsport06]

1. Tyres definitely need changing and Toyota R888 at 16psi made my car less twitchy.

2. You can't be sure verniers will make a difference. It depends how much your cam timing is out. When was cam belt done? Get verniers at the same time.

3. Running at high revs is the fun part. Torque isn't a k series thing. Do you have a 6sp box to keep the engine in the power?

 

 

 

[SLR No.77]

Balance-wise it sounds like you have a lovely car, 1600K/6-speed/dry-sump is a classic sprightly combination, however I wouldn't necessarily start by looking for more power. It might sound drastic, but the first thing I'd do is sell the 14" wheels/tyres and fit some 13" wheels with Avon ZZS tyres. Then I'd get a specialist to do a chassis setup (you'll need adjustable platforms if you haven't got them already), then I'd spend another 6 months learning to use the power you already have before doing anything else!

Again .... where are you?

Stu.

[Richard Price]

1600k/6 speed/dry sump, sounds like someone has spec'd a car for track use. I'd get someone to look over the car who knows what they're looking at. It may be that it has springs that are too stiff(and, if stiff springs have been fitted to standard dampers, that's even worse!).

I'd reiterate. The tyres are not likely to be doing you any favours. They're not great tyres to start with, and if they are also old, they will also offer dramatically less grip. Additionally, appropriate pressures are also low in a Seven application, with around 18psi being typical.

 

1600ss and 6 speed is a sweet spec., But, to get the best out of a 1600ss, it needs to be reved close to its 7600rpm rev limiter!

It is possible to optimise the cam timing on a 1600ss, but If you really want significantly more midrange, then it's more cc's that you need, and a complete engine swap may be cheaper than some of the bolt on upgrades.

[p.mole1]

I had the same issues with mine, your tyres should be 185/60 14 and 20 psi. My car had quite a few problems, incorrectly installed rack, saggy dampers, tracking was out and awful bump steer. It's now sorted and it's like night and day.

The Super sport does not really have much go till you hit 5000 rpm you can rev it up 7600. This can be improved by timing the cams in properly, this made a massive difference on mine. It helps if you are handy with a set of spanners as all the work I have done on mine would have cost £1000s in labour

[dodgedavidson]

Welcome.

The steering alignment can make things really twitchy if you have toe out. You want it on track but it gets very lively on the road. The manual recommends a bit of toe in for road use.

The other thing is check the dates on those tyres, if it's not been used for that long the tyres will be old and quite hard. When I got mine it had nearly 12 year old tyres on it, changed them for new Yoko AD08R, night and day difference to grip levels.

I've had a series of K-Series upgrades (like many others) but check out Dave Andrews site http://www.dvapower.com/ it's the bible for K Series tuning.

If you're going to use it for more main road work rather than track, check the diff ratio, you'll want a 3.62 with a 6 speed box.

Let us know where you are, there will be plenty of help available from your local club members too.

Cheers,

Roger

[Adrian Bridge]

Dear All

Thank you for all your responses - great to know such a wealth of knowledge and experience out there. 

I am based in Yeovil Somerset and will approach the Wessex club members to see if an experienced member can have a look over the car.

SM25T -I  checked the tyres with your advice: 4708 so I guess 9 yrs old! I am running them 18 PSI already. New tyres first on the wish list along with suspension set up for road use

Jonathan - Speedo is mechanical off the gearbox. The rotating spindle (I said I was not technical) broke just after I bought the car in July and was repaired by the dealer so I assume this time the sender or the cable is the problem. 

I don't know when cam belt last done - I assume more than 10 yrs ago so I will again get this looked at in the spring when needs servicing.

sforshaw - Getting the above sorted will put paid to any dreams of engine upgrades on hold and in any case I would feel more confident in using the power I already have once tyres / steering / handling more sorted. Thanks for your advice - easy to get carried away!

once again many thanks

[Jonathan Kay]

... speedo and odometer not working for 2nd time

Speedo is mechanical off the gearbox. The rotating spindle (I said I was not technical) broke just after I bought the car in July and was repaired by the dealer so I assume this time the sender or the cable is the problem. 

The parts are all available and there some trusted repairers if it turns out to be the instrument.

I'm trying to work out if the recurring failure points to anything... anyone?

Jonathan

[Grubbster]

Sometimes the drive gear that the speedo depends on comes loose on the shaft in the gearbox (I think it is pressed on) and this requires the gearbox out to get it welded in place I believe. Hopefully in this example this isn't the case as it's a PITA.

[DougBaker]

Best upgrade to get is one for the Driver 

That is a serious answer as you will gain massive amounts of confidence and respect for the car after having the chance to experience and exceed the cars limits in a safe environment.

The activity days from Carlimits are good and cheap.

I have had my 1.6K Roadsport for ~15 years and still not felt the need to upgrade the engine. On track with skinny tyres you don't need massive amounts of power to slide about.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Previous posters are right: Richard said

The tyres are not likely to be doing you any favours. They're not great tyres to start with, and if they are also old, they will also offer dramatically less grip. Additionally, appropriate pressures are also low in a Seven application, with around 18psi being typical.

As they are 08 tyres, ditch them before they throw you into a ditch. Toyo 888 has been mentioned, I have Uniroyal Rainsport 3 on mine,  there are others more suited to an ultra-lightweight car. 

Then you can look at other things, such as tracking, dampers, suspension which is set-up for track use rather than road use.

[SM25T]

When I get new tyres fitted to the 7 ... the fitter has to inflate them to around 32psi to be able balance them correctly. Then reduce the pressure to 18psi. Another tip ... if the new tyres have a yellow dot ... insist it goes next to the valve. If no yellow dot, but a red one ... It goes 180 degrees opposite the valve. Reduces the amount of balance weights enormously.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

With regard to your local area meetings: You are pretty much equidistant between

Somerset & Wessex: https://www.lotus7.club/area-meetings/somerset-and-wessex  and https://www.lotus7.club/forum/chitchat/somerset-and-wessex-january-meeting

Dorset: https://www.lotus7.club/area-meetings/dorset-dorset-7s meeting later in the month

and I know that both will give you a warm welcome and plenty of helpful advice.

 

EDIT:- The South Wiltshire meeting near Warminster is also within striking distance, where you will receive an equally warm welcome, I'm sure. 

Spoilt for choice!

[SIMO66]

Welcome.

Im also new to Caterham ownership so I am also on a bit of a learning experience. Our cars are very similar, mine is a 1998 1600K SS with wide track suspension,6 speed box and has been breathed on by DVA to 150 BHP.  I purchased her just before the onset of Winter, so not an ideal time of year, but the little I have used her I have also experienced dreadful handling, the car set up is far too stiffly and very skittish. I am running her on 13" Superlite wheels shod with brand new Toyos and the car still feels dreadful. She is fitted with Billstein shocks with springs rated to 250Ibs front 180Ibs rear which I have been informed is far too stiff, so I am planning to change the whole set up, this Spring, to Nitron Street Series with the Geo sorted by PGM,this should sort the car out  for the majority of driving that I do, which is mainly spirited driving around the country lanes of Dorset. I fitted my Elise with Nitrons and it was the best money I spent, they made the car feel so much more planted, ride handling is so important especially with Caterhams as its around half the weight of my Elise!

Anyway, welcome to the club, Caterhams are amazing cars.

SM.

[Jonathan Kay]

Another tip ... if the new tyres have a yellow dot ... insist it goes next to the valve. If no yellow dot, but a red one ... It goes 180 degrees opposite the valve. Reduces the amount of balance weights enormously.

Just read about that. Thanks, very interesting. But have you ever seen a dimple on a 7's wheel?

Jonathan

[elie boone]

https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires-101/advanced-information/match-mounting ( in depth info about balancing )

[7 wonders of the world]

http://toyotires.com.au/toyo-blog/643-seeing-spots

 

[AndrewE]

The steering alignment can make things really twitchy if you have toe out. You want it on track but it gets very lively on the road. The manual recommends a bit of toe in for road use.

Are you sure?

At the PGM open day they told me I should have 25 minutes  +/- 15 minutes of Toe OUT on my 1.6 SS per the Caterham set up instructions I have. This was for road use.

Have not tried it in anger yet as it turned out the rack had wear in the bearings so i needed to change that first!

 

edited: to correct to state minutes!

[rich71]

Mine had some toe out when i first bought it and it was as described, twitchy on the road....this is now set neutral and is vastly different and is a joy to drive and i feel i am now getting the most of what i have

manual states 0 degrees 20 mins +/- 10 mins toe in for road use (Assembly guide issue 1 - k series)

 

[rich71]

i presume minutes not degrees.... 25 would be quite some toe out and would resemble charlie chaplin :-)

 

[AndrewE]

manual states 0 degrees 20 mins +/- 10 mins toe in for road use (Assembly guide issue 1 - k series)

Hmm (and thanks BTW)

I will need to dig out where I was looking....that showed toe OUT.

Back to the garage to reset!