Matt the bass man Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I am old school and my original idea was to put a red hot poker up my crossflow and give it a bit of a boost. However many people have said go the Zetec/Duratec route. I am now a confused person. So come on sort me out which route should I go - Hot crossflow or duratec or Zetec. Cost is a consideration to some extent but the best end result is my main concern. It is for fast road not track and has to be reliable and power around 160+ would be more than ideal. Oh btw it wIll be on a live axle so ultimate power is not my intention for this chassis which I want to keep. All comments and thoughts welcome. Regards Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin J Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Duratec is an expensive option & the exhaust is on the off side so you would need to reskin the car. Zetec seems the obvious answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Martin thanks for the fast reply, is the Zetec reliable in a tuned state - sorry for the question but know nothing about the Zetec apart from the one in my friends focus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Sorry I should also have said, I presume it, the Zetec, is more reliable and oil tight than a crossflow? If I went the Zetec route, which companies would I approach to help me. I would be looking at buying a new engine from which ever company I went with along with fitting of the engine. Regards Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin J Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Matthew, Raceline advertise in low flying. Chris (aeroscreens) has been through this recently as his long serving cross flow let go in France & I belive he is very pleased with the new zetec, (currently touring in Italy) perhaps drop him a line. zetec has a good reputation, not as light as a duratec/sigma or k because the block is cast iron but with an ally head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 You can get a new Zetec intended for a focus for £650 on Ebay. New, crated, ready to go and 160 bhp out of the box. If I were in your shoes in order of preference it would be 1: sell the car and buy a Zetec 7 (or a k). 2: fit a Zetec as above. The Zetec is a million times better than a crossflow. The crossflow was a great engine in its time, but its time was about 1970. If you'd turned up at Ford HQ with a Zetec in 1970 they would have treated you like the second coming of the lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Martin Very useful, many thanks. Anyone else with contributions? Regards Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaterBram Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Mat. I've done the zetec route quite successfully, load of difference from the X/Flow, but you do have quite a decision to make, A Contentious issue as there are several schools of thought, the live axle is limiting factor but is good upto around 160 BHP. I went down the 1.8 zetec route which produces about 150 BHP on a standard crated engine on DCOE40's. you can also go 2.0 stay on 40's and get around 160BHP+ Cost wise a completed self installed crated standard engine will probably total out around £1500, but above that the sky's the limit, depending what you want to to and if you want someone else to install. In all honestly if your not doing the install yourself it might be cost effective to sell your current 7 and put the upgrade money to it to by a newer 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumster Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Matt, Blatmail me so I don't forget, but I can let you have a breakdown of the costs etc for going the Raceline route. Done with Italy and Switezerland and now heading home through France. I've been very happy with my Zetec conversion, although not cheap, it's pretty much unstressed compared to my RKE x/flow. I'm getting 170bhp and 153ft/lbs from a 2.0 Blacktop Zetec with mild cams and twin 40s. In short, I could have thrown money at the x/flow to repair it, but I would have just ended up where I started. I figured spend some more and get a more powerful reliable engine. Not sure which live axle you'll have but I know someone who had around 212bhp on his Zetec with what is (I think) referred to as an 'English' axle. Mine is used for everything from touring, blatting, sprinting and hillclimbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezky Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I fitted a zetec last year, massive improvement over the x/flow although I do miss the noise As Chris ( Aeroscreens ) said, Steve ( Eugene) has a 220bhp zetec running through a LSD equipped Ital axle- it's only a matter of time..... If you blat mail me I can send you a break done of price. Very happy with mine. Probably done 3k miles since the swap, including trackdays and Isle of Mann, utterly reliable and not a drop of oil used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetec Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I also went with 1800 Zetec. Close to 2 ltr bhp but no so much torque as not to damage the gearbox & live axle. I have a 4 speed with quaife ATB. Goes like stink.standard engine but with weber alpha management & 40's . Always ticks-over nicely & well behaved until you give I beans!! It changed my car. It's totally different now. Great drive & recommend the Zetec route Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 If it's a standard LA 7 the axle comes out of an Ital and the conventional wisdon is that 160 bhp is a practical maximum. The English axle is a Ford unit (I think it's also called an Atlas) taken from an Escort Mk2. I believe it's a bit heavier but it is reputed to be bulletproof. It does need different mountings from an Ital though so it's hardly a dropin replacement. The ECU and injectors issue is a thorny one. I would have hoped that you could kid it that it was still in a Focus ST - ECU and injection from that car - but it seems that it's not that easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaterBram Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I kept with the DCOE40's and went the Megajolt route. cheap & chearful & certainly does the job. 😬 whilst keeping the character of the X/Flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I have a Raceline 2.0 litre Zetec on TBs (200+ bhp). I've had the most phenomenally good service from Chris and Pete at Raceline. I confirm that the Zetec is a teriffic engine. Pete McEwan told me that my engine in its current state of tune in not particularly highly stressed. It has mild cams and the head is Raceline's intermediate one. By adding hotter cams I can quite easily up the power to around 225 - 230bhp but, like you I really don't see the need. I'm getting around 35 to 40mpg on a good run too. One word of advice on the cheap new Zetec's available on Ebay: As a basis for a Zetec conversion they are excellent. However, bear in mind that these engines are designed to be mounted transversely and the sump does not have adequate baffling for a longditudenal installation. In other words, Sevens cornering is much better than most cars and the g forces can slosh the oil away from the main feed in the sump, effectively starving the engine of oil. Raceline have developed a gorgeous alloy sump with baffles, which prevent oil starvation. They say that it virtually eliminates the need for a dry sump lubrication system. The other thing I'd go for too is their water rail. It looks far better than a long rubber pipe and has take offs for sensors etc. If you're after less than 200 bhp I doubt you'll need throttle bodies, though it could be an upgrade for the future. The advantage of having TBs is that the engine becomes far more tunable when combined with a decent ECU such as an Emerald K6. You'll get tremendous flexibility right through the rev range and it won't go out of tune in the way Webbers do! By all means drop me a blatmail if I can be of further help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dignity Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I know of several zetecs engines that are still going at over 250,000 miles. My Focus is 170 bhp (Allegedly) and has done 100,000 miles so is nearly run in I think they are a great engine and under rated in a seven. They don't seem to resell for as much as they should but maybe this is because CC have never fitted them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaterBram Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I Agree with Doug , you will need to change the sump from a standard Zetec sump, 3 options, Raceline - Alluminium Very Nice Sump Retroford - Steel Sump - Not quite as pretty but does the job (This is what I use) Modified existing, Welding set and some knowhow (Guides online) The original sump only gives you around 40mm clearance, I had problems when I changed over and ran with the original sump at Goodwood, no oil pressure problems but very little ground clearance. not recommended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Walker Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Caterham never fitted the Zetec here in the UK, but their North American cars were fitted with the Zetec engine. I agree that Caterham did seem to talked the Zetec down in the 1990's, which is a shame as it is a great engine, but I guess it was because they had done a deal with Rover at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 This is all really good information. I think I have the Ital rear axle so I will probably go for under 200bhp. But even if I have over 200bhp I don't have to use it all or just use it carefully and protect the rear axle and gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboylaw Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 But even if I have over 200bhp I don't have to use it all ha ha ha ha ha ha..... Seriously though, i have looked into this and it is on my winter upgrade list.... I am running a Ford English (very different from an atlas, the Atlas is a rear leading diff and stronger than the English - the rally boys use them and originally from a Capri) with LSD. The Axle swap is not too difficult but you will need to swap to ford PCD hubs on the front and change the wheels.... Edited by - jonboylaw on 15 Jul 2011 12:54:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltec Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Take your axle to Mark at Jigsaw Racing, and tell him what you're planning. I know he's rebuilt ital axles for over 200hp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davedlr Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 If you go the English axle route, you don't have to swap to Ford PCD wheels. The English axle in my car still has Ital drum brakes and hubs, I believe James Whiting put it all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Quoting Andrew Walker: Caterham never fitted the Zetec here in the UK, but their North American cars were fitted with the Zetec engine. The Zetec was a great choice for the seven and still is. Same side exhaust as the cross flow. Fairly bullet proof. For my former seven I had the ST170 zetec in a standard trim so it could be OBDII plugged in for state emissions testings and it was perfectly reliable. Just always ran happily and never missed a beat. No hot footwell issues like my current duratec. With a few well chosen extras it was easy to get into the 200-220hp range and still be reliable. Lots of seveners run it in the US without an issue. Easy and cheap parts too. Edited by - Croc on 15 Jul 2011 13:12:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Russell Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Have you considered the big 'ole Vauxhall? thats a characterful and tunable lump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George C Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I went down the illogical route and went as far as I could with my XFlow (and spent far too much money - my choice). I wanted to keep my car original and I quite like the Xflow having raced Xflows in my Caterham and Formula Fords. The Crossflow in general actually has a great heritage having powered many of the well known racing drivers at some point in Formula Ford. Also in the Formula Ford world it has recently made a bit of a comeback in recent years and they are now producing new blocks, cranks etc. The difference in lap time is minimal with Zetec FFord's. I suspect some of this is down to the Zetec being top heavy. Scholar built me an all steel XFlow with narrow journals, long rods, short forged pistons, 1760cc, 244cam (for drivability), Roger King big valve head with further porting, Webber 45s, MBE ignition, dry sump. Around 175bhp on the dyno with a really beefy flat torque curve. Limited to 8300revs. On the road it is amazingly torquey, revs well, sounds fantastic and above all is exciting to drive. With new methods of building and setting up engines it doesnt leak oil at all and will tick over happily at 1000 revs and has more pull at low revs than the Alfa (with high tech engine) I drive every day. Technically the Zetek is a better and is an easier way to get more power and reliability, it depends on what you are after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James_Russell Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Have to say I would be in two minds about it. The Crossflow is truly a lovely engine and fits the seven's character well. Logic dictates you go for a more reliable, less stressed modern engine but IMO you may as well get a more reliable, less stressed modern car if that is your thinking! Controversial, I know, and lots of converts will be 😔... maybe I'd think differently if I was having to re-build as regularly as some crossflows need. I was lucky enough to meet Chris (Aeroscreens) when he was mid-conversion and I beleive that he does a lot with that car in terms of touring miles and sprinting, and of course no-one wants to sell the car they're attached to if it's only the engine they'd change. So yeah, this post was no help at all to anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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