AMMO Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 There seems to be more and more cheap crap from China turning up as "tuning" components nowadays. Some of it is very poor indeed. About a year ago some guys turned up at the workshop punting some stuff they had imported from China whilst on business for their employers. We had a look at the crank and rods they bought along. Almost laughed. Both very mediocre quality. We shoved a set of Arrow rods and an Arrow crank under their noses to see if they could see the difference. Amazingly it seemed that they couldn't. Yesterday I spotted a box in the workshop that Richard from Coltec Racing Engines Ltd. (the premises where I work) had taken in as part of a pile of bits to build a Pinto engine. He builds some pretty hot ones indeed. The crank had been supplied by the customer. I could see that it was garbage without even getting that close. The webs looked like they had been shaped with an angle grinder by some bloke sitting on the floor, then peened (or possibly just shot blasted) to hide all manner of ills. I could tell that the journals were not round where the oil drillings were by the way the light caught it even before I put a mic to it. We haven't done a hardness test or tried to see what it is like for balance yet but Richard has told the customer if it isn't up to scratch it is not going into one of his engines full stop. Better off using a stock production crank and keeping your fingers crossed as I can't see the Chinese crank being any better. Keep in mind that Coltec used to be Holbay and they used to manufacture cranks and rods. Coltec still do occasionally as there is a crank grinding machine on the premises with the know-how in-house to make them. The machine is used to recondition cranks now as it is easier to get them made outside by people who do it full time. An Arrow crank is around £1,900.00 + VAT for a reason. How can people realistically expect a crank that is around £600.00 inc VAT to be the same? Not having a dig at all the Chinese but please remember that not long ago they put poisonous paint on children's toys and one company killed children with tainted milk not once, but twice, I believe. Profit is more important than quality. Would you trust the Chinese metallurgy? Personally I don't. Whereas I trust Ian Arnold and Co. at Arrow implicitly. I have been dealing with him for a long time. I know that the metallurgy will be correct, he will read my drawings correctly and make me the best crank without cutting corners. That it will allow me to build the best engine possible. I don't want to be competeing with cheap eBay engines. Why do you think so much of the F1 technology is based in the UK? Any Chinese engines in F1, WSBK or MotoGP. Don't think so. I have seen F1 Ferrari and Chambon cranks for F1 Renaults. They were quite a bit different to what was in the box at work. I will say this. If the Chinese produce a crank as good as an Arrow one I will use it. I really mean it. Somehow I don't think that day will be sometime soon. End of mini-rant. 😔 Ammo Raceco.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Ammo, i can't understant your rant big or small, it's the initial customer that is to blame for poor quality items, you get for what u pay or what u order in China. Btw it's true that there are no Chinese F1 cars but they did beat the Japanse for the run to space. Even if they did bought in all technology they must be clearly be able to do things the proper way. Also they are cleared by most "factory" fauld due to customer spec being wrong Edited by - elie boone on 30 Nov 2008 10:06:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Ammo, I appreciate your thoughts. You're a perfectionist - in the good way. You get your results as a result of this. Unfortunately some people don't know the difference and will just say: Hey I can get the same item much cheaper. Because they don't know better. There's a reason why you're one of the few engine builders I'd trust my engine. Because your work is always state of the art - with attention to the detail! I am truly concerned for Europe in general as so many think the way the customer who supplied the crank does. /r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 So, I take it, your not recommending them? JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 I set myself a budget of £2000 to build a 300BHP 2.3 Duratec and although it is a bit down on power at the moment, I think thats down to fuelling and I need to drill a bigger hole in the original injectors I'm using. But my Chinese crank is running just great and is fine for up to 2,500rpm. The installation instructions were a bit difficult to understand but a Chinese friend of mine helped to translate them and it turns out the oval crank journals are a patented way to 'momentary increase stroke' which I think is very clever. It's always been a case of caveat emptor but as this sort of tat becomes more accessible I suppose more people let their eyes rule their head. I confess to believing in there being 'room for negotiation' in some things but as you say, at the end of the day, you get what you pay for. Some people's approach to Ebay seems to be an example of this; assuming that there are some great steals on it is dangerous thinking. There may be one or two, but unless you're really lucky the massively underpriced 'bargain' import is that price for a good reason. Darren E K80 RUM Website and Emerald maps library Duratec/SuperlightR hybrid Edited by - k80rum on 30 Nov 2008 12:10:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regroo Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Ammo, I have been in engineering for 20 odd years now and can put some perspective on this I think? My Company makes plastic extrusion equipment and in recent years it has become more and more obvious that the Chinese have arrived. It used to be the case that everything they made was utter rubbish, basically just bad copies of 5 year old designs using the cheapest of components. Fast forward to last years enormous trade fair in Germany and Chinese manufacturers are mixing it in the main halls. Their kit is about 50% cheaper than European stuff and it actually makes decent quality product. What I am saying is that it is easy to dismiss right now but I am betting that if there is a market for these cranks that China or another far eastern manufacturer will get them right given some time. As per my line of work it is an absolute fact that we don’t have the divine right to sell things in a free market and unless we all drop our arrogance and raise our game market share will be affected and overall quality will bow to simple economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 in a free market and unless we all drop our arrogance and raise our game market share will be affected and overall quality will bow to simple economics. No idea what that man just said...but I've a manager talks like that too. 😬 Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regroo Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 No idea what that man just said...but I've a manager talks like that too 😬 Dont write off engineers, not even Chinese ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Ammo, my penneth. I 100% agree with you. I haven't seen anything come out of China, which isn't tat! I work in the yachting industry, for a very wealthy English family. My Boss makes his money (Or did!) in construction. (Amongst other things, thank goodness!) He was importing hundreds of containers a year from China, bathrooms, bathroom fittings, etc. etc. a fraction of the price he can get it in Europe. He's telling me the stuff is "mint, exactly the same as wirlpool stuff", but when I talk to his employees, who have to fit the stuff, every four or five they fit, one has to come out. Basically rubbish. But the Boss gets it cheap, builds the apartments cheap, sells them quick (well, did) fast turnover, lots of waste too. Then we get talking about boats. I started working for this guy over 6 years ago. He had a Taiwan built boat, 82ft white and shiney. Very nice, if you like thet sort of thing. Two years down the road, he wants me to oversee a new build in Taiwan. I tell him to look towards Holland, or Germany for a good quality build, as I said I didn't believe there was skilled labour in China, or Taiwan, for quality boat construction. He didn't agree with me. So, I spend the next 12 months toing and froing from Taiwan, watching his new boat being built, and seeing some horror stories in the process! And having some very heated arguments with these guys in the process, over some of thier build techniques. I think I nipped a lot of potential problems in the bud. But. That boat is now just over four years old, and some of the stuff that I didn't see is now coming to light. At the moment I have a two square meter section of deck up, with the top skin, and core removed, to repair delamination where the dingy/jet ski davit lifted it. I found 100mm square pieces of 5mm ply stapled together to make 10mm, without any bond, as a filler! I've told my Boss they've given him the packing cases back that he used to send some gear over to them. Some of the small generators, water pumps, mini moto's, off road buggies, and scooters I see being imported, are rubbish if you look not too close. Basically, I think it's a waste of the worlds resourses, and the emissions coming out of China, from thier industry, is a disgrace! People need to look to thier concience before buying this tat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 dont knock em the spare ribs are excellent here is C7 TOP Taffia joint AO with Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 The sossiges and pork pies are good too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Voyant Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Mick Basically, I think it's a waste of the worlds resourses, and the emissions coming out of China, from thier industry, is a disgrace! True, agreed. Ammo, I agree with your primary point:- get good stuff I do this and it often means that I have to buy less because I want the right quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 I would also like to concur with your observations regarding Chinese built machinery. I was looking at chainging my Myford super 7 with a larger machine, looked at the likes of Chester/Toolco/Warco and so on all of which are cheaper chinese imports. The quality was Horrendous between suppliers, i have never seen such shoddy shortcuts. *thumbdown* The whole model engineer machinery suppliers use chinese sub quality machines that are bl**dy dreadfull in terms of use. I have decided to keep my English made machine and save up for another English Harrison. Chinese should keep to what they know best.............................. Food. 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithT Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Peter T, we currently have three Harrison Alpha Lathes between 1.5 and 3 years old. As far as I know these particular machines are assembled in the UK. The smallest (a 2M bed 1550T built in 2007) is equipped with a Chinese-made Lube pump which has caused problems (the machine keeps stopping with an out of lube error message - though the tank is full). It seems the solution will be replacement with a non-Chinese pump but this is more expensive, difficult to fit and involves a new loom. Harrison have marketed 100 per cent Chinese made lathes but I believe there have been a lot of quality problems. There seems to be a big difference between the quality of Chinese and other machines made in Asia as our Feeler and Hardinge have been fine. I suppose we shouldnt generalise about the Chinese since an earlier Harrison had a ZF clutch that kept breaking (and led to the machine being replaced after 4 years) and the (apparently) UK made machines arent can have issues too. But you've obviously had better luck! Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regroo Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 We have an Alpha and a couple of older Students. I have to say I was brought up on Colchesters and they seem to be fairly tough. I cant remember the name but one import lathe we looked at suffered from really bad bed wear despite supposedly having a European spec. I am guessing that the real inteest is in machining centres these days rather than 'jobbing' machines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickrick Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 I think the Chinese food over here is Westernised. I like it too, but when I was in Taiwan, I lost a lot of weight. Some of it was, well..... I couldn't get used to belching at the table in a resturaunt, and sucking bits of food between the teeth being acceptable. I've travelled a lot, but I found it a totaly alien culture. Anyway, I digress from crankshafts. There's a lot of stuff on e-bay, rods pistons etc. as far as I'm concerned, it's not an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted December 1, 2008 Author Share Posted December 1, 2008 Glad to see that we still appreciate quality here and have enough common sense to realise that a cheap price isn't everything. The British motorcycle industry tried to ignore Japan and went down the pan. Triumph is back and has been for a few years, but as far as I understand they are using Japanese methods to produce their motorcycles now. The "stick our head in the sand" method that the old Triumph factory used obviously didn't work. It would be foolish to ignore China. They are here to stay and that is a fact. The Chinese already make many excellent products for us here in the West. It is just that at the moment crankshafts isn't one of them. As I said in my previous post when I see a good crank from China I will probably use it. Rods (an easier component to make) I have seen are improving but not quite there yet. My worry is that one day we will produce nothing in the UK and just become a theme park for visiting tourists with our main produce being knocked up teenage slappers on benefits. I can see with some of the firms that I am dealing with that the the quality and know-how is disappearing as the older staff retire. I recently had a heated conversation with one large company and suggested that their "designer" should go a flip burgers at MacDonalds. All is not good in the UK. Luckily there are still companies here that I can rely on to make me parts so I can continue to do my job. So maybe my rant (mini or not) was not only about China but of declining standards here as well. I'll leave you yet again with something I have posted many times here over the years: “It is unwise to pay too much… but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money…that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better”. John Ruskin Then there is the modern-day condensed version courtesy of a friend and customer, Carlos Paul, who hails from “The House of the Mouse” (Orlando, Florida). “You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken s**t”. 😬 Ammo Raceco.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Ammo, i agree with u but it's not only the Chinese, i once bought a Chevvy Engine in America rather cheap to fit in a kit car. The kit car builder advice to buy from this company and the engine cost about 10.000€. I wonder how they ever have been able to set the world record 0-100-0. The engine used about 3 to4 ltrs of oil every 1000km The engine when then to a reputable engine builder ho just retain the .....block of the engine the rest went straight into the bin as it was utter rubbish. There is surely a very high level of motorsport competence in the UK but sometimes due to the fact they are so specialised they loose to see the bigger pic. and also importantly customer service is not always a strong point. In the end quality will always survive you just have to work much harder to sustain it. Strangely people seem to be willing to buy cheap over and over again maybe due to the fact the can brag they have bougt again something new, or find the price/life expectence acceptable rather than have an eye for quality sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 American Speed 🤔 They seem to be getting a reputation for producing sh1te. My friend Jason had a very quick 0-100-0 car in his workshop fitted with an alleged 640hp AS Chevy. It recorded barely over 300hp on a rolling road after the purchaser had complained that he didn't feel he had what he'd paid for - turned out the engine had been assembled incorrectly, only one of the twin chokes was working and I think some of the internals were not of sufficient quality. Suffice it to say that after rectifying the issues with quality parts and quality British labour the car did indeed go like sh1te off a shovel (I have first hand testament of a little escapade up the A140 😳). It has to be questioned why the builder of record breaking 0-100-0 cars does not sell the engines directly but the purchasers of their cars buy the engine seperately from the engine builder - avoidance of warranty issues Keep off the straight and narrow 😬 Edited by - Nifty on 1 Dec 2008 10:30:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brown Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Germans aren't so smart either. I have a friend who has, amongst his responsibilities, a number of large freight locos. Most ran well but one vibrated more than the others and turbos didn't last. Eventually stripped down the V16 to find one camshaft fitted 180 deg out! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myothercarsa2cv Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 one camshaft fitted 180 deg out Cor that's even worse than Rover... No verniers could fix that!!! I thought Chevy crate motors weren't too bad. Maybe you got a bad egg Elie? Hot Rod magazine recently did a comparo of a bunch of GM Performance crate motors and they all performed really well, plenty of wheel standing 😬. John _________________________ Bugsy: '82 2cv6 (Gearbox imploded ) Talloulah: '08 1.6K Classic (Tarnishing nicely ☹️) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nifty Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 John, I believe Elie is referring to the same engine builder as I am .. in which case these are not standard GM crated engines but modified engines. Keep off the straight and narrow 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myothercarsa2cv Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Ahhhh I see! Will be avoiding them then. Can you get GM Performance Division parts through GM dealers in the UK? I fancy a 500hp lump for the 2cv... *tongue* John _________________________ Bugsy: '82 2cv6 (Gearbox imploded ) Talloulah: '08 1.6K Classic (Tarnishing nicely ☹️) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 I've just returned from Chine on a buying mission for centrifugal pumps and diesel engines. The difference in pump quality factory to factory was amazing with a lot of it being rubbish but I did find one company making reasonable quality that will be fine for our market in mid east. Re diesel engines most of the big manufacturers have factories there and I will be buyng some Cummins engines to try. Outwardly they are indistinguishable from US or UK made and the components also look to be same quality. Of course only a few yaers of hard running will tell. I think it depends on the standards set by the manufacturer, and there cetainly are quality crank manufacturers in China, at least for diesel engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Nifty, you are spot on, i can talk all day about the mess both make of it, bad for the blood pressure. like sending obsolete parts and refusing a refund. John, u can put a BMW boxer in your 2cv like the racecars do but these have a limit of 65 or 70 bhp, imagine what a 120 or more bhp boxer will do with the little duck *eek* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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