New Caterham prices up - lack of supply

[TomB]

Could they be reducing / minimizing profit as they putting resources into R&D? So although a headline profit of £20k doesn't sound much, they could be spending multiples of that of on R&D other projects.  I recall a similar line of conversation after last years seminar.   

[GulfSeven]

#45 I bought my car from Williams (new, two years ago) and they've addressed a few issues under warranty for me during that time without any hassle.

[David aka Blue7]

Regarding the price increase, there must be some unforeseen increases in material costs unless they are adopting a 'market value' strategy for fixing end product sale price.  From the webinar it appears that the new owners are taking strict control and it will not be acceptable to just break even as they did the previous year and the quoted recent profit of £20k will not be acceptable.

IMO the future for CC is grim, the 2030 deadline is their sword of Damocles, they don't have an EV R&D Dept so can only sit and wait in hope that someone may come up with a suitable EV platform.  In the meantime they will have to pay someone to carry out market research to establish whether or not there is a viable market for an EV7 and my guess is that there is not a viable market given price and the reduced tactile / sensory driving experience.  In addition it will be unable to conform with the burdensome safety standards that continue to increase every year.

My 7 driving days will probably be coming to an end post 2030 and I consider myself lucky to have experienced the joy of driving since the mid 60's when cars became exciting and affordable and if you couldn't afford a new car you could buy an old banger and shave the head, stick an additional carb on and a set of wide wheels ... not forgetting stripes of course!

One vehicle that is never mentioned is the motorbike, are all the old Rockers going to be forced off the road also, I don't see any mention of EV bikes other than cycles.

In any case, where is the fun in driving a fast car at 15 mph stuck behind the lycra brigade riding 4 abreast?

[Paul N]

Thanks GulfSeven, reassuring to hear, they've been spot on so far, should have my car in the near future

Know of other manufacturers with price increases, mate has a VW van ordered longer than our car & same there with price increase, it's a strange world we live in at the moment 

[420R]

I fear you are correct Blue7

Maybe China and any emerging markets will hoover up EV production so even if they sell one or two a month in the U.K. it matters not.

I'm thankful that I could even buy a 7 today (or in 15 months!) given its complete lack of safety features.  It's essentially unchanged from a 50's Lotus. The last brand new 50's classic car in production.   Unlike a Morgan that just retains the silhouette.   Imagine being able to buy a new Porsche 356 Speedster from a main dealer!

 

I don't want to be saved from myself.  Personal responsibility has now been replaced by the nanny state.  

Caterham can't find a suitable 1600 four pot so lord knows how they are going to source a complete EV system that will work.  How many small rear wheel drive machines are there?  None!  Maybe a Japanese K class electric van will come along.    Even so it will be putting a motor in the front.  Then a battery also in the front or in the boot.    
 

it doesn't matter what I think.  It's what environmental fan boys think.   
 

Then we have the Academy series.  Yes that's going to be scintillating.  A silent grown ups Scalextrix!   What a dystopian tangled mess of a web we weave!
 

 

[edo]

One hopes so. 

[TomB]

Glass half full, eh lads? Glad to see a spirit of optimism pervading the forums today.  

[SLR No.77]

Can someone pop out and get some more popcorn please, this is pure entertainment 

Time to do some reading and research fellas ...

• there's already over 30 sizable EV manufacturers in China, most of whom you'll have never heard of;
• motor in the back, battery in the front or the other way round, that's not how the latest EVs are built, they use a "rollerskate" battery platform which is integral to the strength of the car, very different to a traditional car layout;
• "I don't see any mention of EV bikes" - clearly you weren't at the NEC bike show this year, they're starting to feature very noticeably at the shows, and led by guess who, the Chinese of course; Check out Zero motorcyles for one.
• No gearbox to play with? The rest of the performance car market has already moved to automatic gearboxes and flappy paddles, if you want that experience from an EV adding the paddles and programming the software will give you whatever you desire.
• The Caterham Seven will adapt or die, let's hope it adapts.

And before you suggest I'm a tree hugging EV enthusiast, my hobby time is taken up with a Caterham, a couple of old Minis and a rather large bike, all involving plenty of petrol (well mostly, not quite the case yet for one of the Minis).

I'm refusing to stick my head in the sand though and have moved to an EV for my daily commute and have learnt a lot about what the change to EV involves, and it's very different to the views I had before making the change.

Stu.

[Andrew 21 Edney]

My understanding is that CC are holding out for something suitable, so not making a move yet seems sensible. Who knows, there might be a stay of execution if you can get carbon neutral liquid fuel...

[aerobod - near CYYC]

I would say from a track day perspective, if Caterham can scale up electric go-karts as opposed to scaling down EV road cars, they could be on to a winner.

At the moment 25kW electric karts can typically run for 20 mins on a full charge from a 5kWh battery and require about the same time to recharge between sessions, although swappable battery packs are often used. The 25kW karts are capable of 135km/h top speed and 0-100km/h in 3.3 seconds. The powertrain weight (motor, battery, control electrics) is in the 55kg range. 10kW units with similar run times are about half the weight, so a 150kW unit (and 500Nm of torque) with 20 min flat-out run time would likely be 200kg or so, giving a Caterham weighing about 550kg and sub 3 second 0-100km/h acceleration.

An innovative layout would be to have a "droppable" secondary battery pack weighing 150kg or so that could double the range for touring (to about 350km / 220 miles), but be removed for track use, this could also be used as a secondary track battery pack that could be on charge while the other pack is being used. Just requires track charging infrastructure to be available.

They don't have the noise of an ICE vehicle, but they aren't quiet and have a top end scream that is quite visceral. Certainly at my local indoor kart track you are advised to wear hearing protection.

[TomB]

How dare you throw reasoned argument around 

[TomB]

That's an interesting alternative I've not heard of before. I'd imagine a space frame kart has more in common with a 7 than a skateboard EV. 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

This is the sort of kart power train available: https://blueshockrace.com/electric-kart-power-units/

I think you could probably engineer 5kWh battery modules to 30kg, using 4 in the central tunnel underneath, 2 in the back and 4 in the front. At that weight they could probably be slid in and out under the car with a small wheeled trolley and a simple locking mechanism. Probably would require an independent rear suspension to make room for the motor and 2 rear battery packs. For track, you could play around with weight distribution depending on which battery packs you had in place.

[ScottR400D]

Well I really don't see that much pessimism in the thread just some concern about whether CC have the capability to do this properly and have an attractive, affordable product at the end of it. 

IME and opinion they have never shown the kind of capability that would be needed to achieve the kind of thing James suggests, though I guess someone will get there eventually. If there's a market by then. 

I would think this is far and away the biggest challenge CC have ever faced in terms of product development. 

[Jonathan Kay]

"I think you could probably engineer 5kWh battery modules to 30kg, using 4 in the central tunnel underneath, 2 in the back and 4 in the front. At that weight they could probably be slid in and out under the car with a small wheeled trolley and a simple locking mechanism. Probably would require an independent rear suspension to make room for the motor and 2 rear battery packs. For track, you could play around with weight distribution depending on which battery packs you had in place."

And as well as distribution with this approach you can match packs to the range needed, as in your #60 above.

"Why can't an electric motor just run through a regular gearbox etc? You could even retain a clutch."

That's often the easiest conversion. But it doesn't release as much space as a more direct drive, and doesn't help torque vectoring etc.

Vintage Voltage illustrates the two different approaches. 

Jonathan

PS:

Tesla went into production still considering packs that could be easily swapped. And it looks as they now consider it unnecessary. Which makes structural battery systems possible. 

[SLR No.77]

"I would think this is far and away the biggest challenge CC have ever faced in terms of product development"

Agree completely, everything else pales into insignificance.

Stu.

[ScottR400D]

"That's often the easiest conversion. But it doesn't release as much space as a more direct drive, and doesn't help torque vectoring etc."

A decent LSD will sort the TV out........... Ahh, yes, fair point. 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Perhaps instead of a clutch pedal, one could add interest by having a left accelerator and right accelerator with dual drive motors. Right accelerator to control the amount of power, left "accelerator" would control the bias between the two motors

[Ivaan]

How would we feel about losing the shape / layout of the 7? An EV is likely to need a different chassis and shape. Maybe they'll take the opportunity to improve it's aero performance.

But the cost involved in getting a totally new car on the road would surely be prohibitive.

[David aka Blue7]

#58 Stu, thanks for the link, no, I've never been to NEC despite being a native of the area.  I had never heard of Zero motorbikes but I see they have numerous dealers in the UK.  Looking at the top of range bike SRS at £21k it has a range of 99 miles at 55 mph and a charge time of 4 hours.  It wouldn't suit the majority of bikers who obviously enjoy the sound of the bike and would desire more range but interesting nevertheless, it conjures up images of old Rockers being replaced by a new breed of Trons 

[ScottR400D]

#69 that isn't going to be a 7 really, is it? Just another weekend car. 

[420R]

So the 7 will probably end up as an XL electric go cart!!

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

"... that isn't going to be a 7 really, is it?"

This is so important, Whether we call it the next Seven or the future Seven or the electric Seven we need to *discuss what would make it a Seven at all.

... as similar as possible to an ICE Seven?
... as functional as an ICE Seven... road, touring, track?
... as well suited as an ICE Seven to home assembly and maintenance and adjustment?
... as close as possible to the sensation of driving an ICE Seven?
... the fastest thing at the price?
... what the Founder would design now?

Jonathan

* And of course, that is discuss... agree might be a step too far.   : - )

 

[Ivaan]

Will it being a Caterham be enough of an appeal? The 7 part is pretty important too.

As JK says, what would Chapman do?

[420R]

Chapman would probably sell!