Interested in a design evening @ Raceline?

[k80rum]

During a chat with Peter this morning, we were kicking a few ideas around and got on to the subject of cooling. High power output engines in the 7 are placing more demands on the cooling systems these days, particularly oil cooling as seen by the big Duratecs that do a lot of trackwork.

 

Peter's convinced that the nose of the 7 and the layout of radiator and oil cooler could be improved upon. Something Caterham are starting to do with the R500. He dug out 10 pages of sketches that an F1 aerodynamicist did against the Seven several years back which were incredibly interesting.

 

Peter wanted to know whether there would be any interest in getting together one evening later this year to look at the cooling in the nose area, with a view to improving it. I've volounteered my car to use as the guinea pig, since it's likely to have the engine out. If we can get a meeting of minds, we can come up with some designs so see what alternatives exist.

 

Would anyone else be interested to attend and lend their perspective to the process?

 

Peter explained how one issue seems to be the apeture in the current nose. Air can only flow through the radiator at around 60mph, so going faster than 60mph means you're effectively trying to push a block of air - something that at speeds 50 years ago wasn't such an issue but today it becomes more significant. A slightly longer nose with a smaller aperture might provide benefits here. The smaller aperture would encourage air rammed in at >60mph to expand and slow as it hits the radiator. Exhausted air could then be ducted out as the CSR does, with a low pressure area designed to create a vacuum.

 

It's an interesting area and to have someone of Peter's calibre keen to see whether the existing design could be improved without affecting the character and aesthetics of the car is a great opportunity. No dates have been set yet, but if it sounds like something you'd like to get involved with - to add ideas and kick the tyres, please note it in this thread.

 

Darren E

 

K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library

 

Superlight R #54

 

Edited by - k80rum on 26 Sep 2008 18:25:23

[I.Mupferit]

I'm in.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

[Peter Carmichael]

Me too.

[Neil_K]

Yup

 

Where am I?

[SmokinGreen]

Me too

[Darren Harrold]

*smokin*count me in too

[k80rum]

That's fantastic. Thanks for the responses so far.

 

I'll keep Peter M posted and we can get a few provisional dates to choose from. I'll see if I can sort out a scrap nose to work with if we need to.

 

Peter's suggested an approach of working out what would be ideal and then getting as close to that as practical, given the packaging of the front chassis. If we come up with some ideas and decide when we've got something that's a good balance of form and function, he'll draught the design and see about getting a pattern knocked up.

 

It should at the very least, prove be a productive ideas session. The new Raceline car will be on hand to compare with. It's design was the result of taking the aerodynamicist's 7 report work to it's conclusion - something that wouldn't have been practical with the 7. It'll be handy to have something to compare and contrast with.

 

Darren E

 

K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library

 

Superlight R #54

 

 

[rgrigsby]

I'm interested as well but I it would depend on the date 😬

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Big Brother]

I'm in!

 

Steve

 

 

SE7EN-UP!

-----_{If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.}

-----

 

[Mike Biddle]

If I am in UK on the day I would very much like to attend.

 

If its possible I would bring my car as well, if anyone wants to see cooling issues then take a look at the nest of snakes under my nosecone!

 

Mike.

[Mick Day]

Darren

 

Any excuse to have a fiddle so count me in.

 

Mick

[Barry]

and me, please.

[k80rum]

Okay chaps . It's possible that Luke Beaumont and Ammo may also be popping along. Mike B, if there's a chance to see your car, that'd be brilliant.

 

I'll let Peter the know numbers so far, when I pop over on Monday. At this rate he's going to need a bigger workshop.. 😬

 

I'll get some dates from him but perhaps a weekend might be easier, especially for those travelling a distance.

 

Darren E

 

K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library

 

Superlight R #54

 

 

[Chris Norman]

Yes please *thumbup*

 

Thanks

Chris

[dannylt]

Who's having problems with oil temperature on high power duratecs? I don't think I've ever managed to get mine to hit 100, and it's rare to go over 85. The water temperature has never budged.

 

Contrast to my old Radical with monster radiator sized oil cooler that used to hit 130 after 30 minutes or so.

 

There are plenty of things to fix, so I'll leave the stuff that works alone I think :-)

 

[Pendennis]

My Duratec has always suffered with high oil temperature, lots of developement has now got it peaking @ 110c, which is fine by me, but that's during race conditions (not normal). Water has never really been an issue but that's mainly down to Peter M ideas anyway. There are lots of ventilation tricks that can be done to the nose and bonnet of which I would be very interested to hear some more.

 

So count me in

 

*thumbup*

 

18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset to let

[k80rum]

Will do Ian - would you mind letting him know numbers if you get a chance on Friday?; we've got a provisional 15 .

 

The main reason for looking at this is that although things are okay it's an old design which although 'ain't broke', now has less and less margin to it for as evidenced by some of the higher output engines when they're pushed.

 

The changes made in the CSR and R500 are starting to address this with bonnet venting, fan cowlings and the recumbant rad. But it's still not been taken back to the basics. Until the R500 rad, the oil cooler was sitting in front of the water rad which did the job but wasn't really tidy from an engineering point of view.

 

As i had it explained, there's also the underlying issue that with the higher speeds achievable today anything over 60mph is going to be trying a stack of air forwards because of the huge nose aperture with the radiator sat right behind it. It's just one of the reasons so much power is required to raise the top speed at all, even with an aeroscreen. Decreasing the size of the nose aperture and setting the radiator back further should improve things (although whether it's by a significant amount is the question.. ).

 

Interestingly Peter reckons you might be able to halve the intake area without a detrimental effect. The new demonstrator has two number-plate sized apertures in it's Panoz-like nose. Only one is actually necessary when it's on the track.

 

Darren E

 

K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library

 

Superlight R #54

 

 

 

Edited by - k80rum on 30 Sep 2008 08:46:43

[caterhamnut]

Certainly be interested - can bring a pad along 😬

Although with those numbers, it could turn into a who-can-shout-the-loudest, so only if there is space

 

www.mycaterham.com

here

Videos

here

102,000 miles car

[Blackbirdman]

Fascinating!

 

If Ammo and Luke B go I'll come down with them.

 

I have always felt that in a standard 7 300bhp was about the limit set by the available cooling. This is a pure finger in the air guess though!

 

Matt

 

 

Life begins at 10,000

[dannylt]

The drivetrain is more of a limit than the cooling I'd say! I don't even have an oil cooler; just an oversize front mounted oil tank.

[I.Mupferit]

The oil in my 2.3 Duratec always stayed way cooler when I went to a dry sump, despite having a lot more bhp and despite me using the full rev range which I was never able to do previously. I have a pretty good idea why and it had nothing to do with insufficient cooling previously.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

[rgrigsby]

I've also never had oil temp problems, I've got the front mounted Brise dry sump tank and a Radtec radiator. I think the oil temp has got up to around 100 after a long session on a hot track day but I've never seen higher than that.

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[k80rum]

I would think wet sumps might suffer more than dry sumps - with the dry sump you must get some cooling effect from the fact you've got about 5 litres of hot oil held in an air-cooled tank as it gets sucked back into the engine. Maybe it's negligable

 

Darren E

 

K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library

 

Superlight R #54

 

 

[I.Mupferit]

More importantly with the Duratec particularly I think is that you can eliminate windage and aeration of the oil by using a dry sump. Apparently the Duratec tends to hold rather a lot of oil up in the crankcase at high rpm when fitted with a wet sump and it is this which increases it's temperature as it is whipped about by the crank. On average, the oil temp when I had a wet sump was around 10-15 deg higher than it subsequently was with the dry sump, even when using much higher rpm.

 

Like Danny and Rob G, my car had the front mounted oil tank so yes, I'm sure that helped as it received a good blast of air to aid cooling but I do think that isn't the whole story.

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 1 Oct 2008 09:24:53

[Peter Carmichael]

Same as a K.