Duratec tweaking at Emerald

[AMMO]

For those interested in Duratecs:

 

Another successful full day at Emerald tweaking Danny LT’s Raceco 2.2 litre Duratec. Made some changes here and there, tried some stuff that didn’t work that lost us power. Easier to lose power than to find it at this stage.

 

The big thing is that with the new Emerald ECU it is possible to have three switchable maps. So map 1 is full power with high flow air filter, map 2 is with airbox on and map three is a “wet” map. The wet map is with the bottom end softened to maintain traction when opening the throttle. Might even come in handy in the dry. So yesterday was a bit like three mapping sessions.

 

The engine worked very hard and generated a lot of heat in the dyno cell but happily still delivered the goods.The power runs were consistant and repeatable. Dave Walker remarked that the engine didn’t seem that bothered to be pulled up to 300 bhp continuosly during the course of the day. Rev limit now set to 9,000 rpm.

 

Basically I was looking to gain 300 rpm as previously the engine was peaking at 300.6 bhp at 8,306 rpm with 206.7 at 6519 rpm.

 

Now we have 304.9 at 8655 rpm and 210 ft lb at 6713 rpm. But more importantly the torque and power curves are much fuller as well. The torque curve hits 210 ft lb at 5,500, dips a little and hits again at 6,500ish. Before torque was only around 200 at 5500 and 205 at 6500. Hopefully Danny will post the dyno graphs to www.dyno-plot.co.uk later today so the graphs can be overlaid.

 

The engine will probably be left alone for the rest of the year with some internal changes over the winter that should eventually take us to 320 bhp with the 2.2 and to have an attempt at 300 + bhp with the 2 litre at some stage. I have designed some new parts that are being made to do this.

 

More good news is that the engine now makes over 300 bhp with the airbox fitted. 301.1 bhp at 8424 with 201.2 at 5732. Before we had an abysmal 291.3 bhp at 8312 and 198.5 ft lb at 6769. So mission accomplished as it was my ambition to get over 300 bhp with the airbox on. From my point of view there is no point making a 300 bhp engine to lose 10 bhp to quieten it down.

 

On the whole I am quite happy although I am itching to try the new parts when they arrive. Probably won’t get to dyno til the early part of next year or at the very earliest around Christmas. Having said that I did go to bed with a bit of a grin on my face last night

 

Shame that Danny can't make the FCITW event this weekend due to family stuff. I doubt he would take the cup home again this year if Dave Edmand's is on form but it would have been nice to see what sort of improvements he could have made over last year's times.

 

 

 

AMMO

[Dickie Normuss]

I did go to bed with a bit of a grin on my face last night

It's good when that happens. Too many people spend too much time being unhappy and doing nothing about it but moan. Good result

 

VX HPC - Loud and proud here

Watch out, whatever hits the fan will not be distributed evenly

[Gambo]

NICE

Where will it stop do you think?? 10000 rpm, 320bhp? Who needs a super charger

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP here

[Nifty]

Ammo,

 

Good to see you last night and great effort on Danny's engine.

Sorry I didn't chat too much but I needed to get back out on track for my fix and you'd disappeared when I came back in.

We do need to talk with regard to an exhaust

 

Interestingly, with regard to the Emerald, Carl told me that the three way switching facility hardware can be fitted to my existing ECU for about £30.

I think I'll got down this route and have an MOT map, a gentle (wet, cruising) road map and a track map.

Would I be able to switch maps to get through a noise test I wonder

 

Speak to you shortly mate ... might give you a ring in a while

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[David Lynch]

Congratulations , and nice to hear of the switchable Emerald. Everyday's a school day.

Hmm, Bioethanol map and corrosion resistant fuel system.....

 

1.4K SS 😬 Just smiling

[Nick Green]

Ammo,

 

Any idea how the map was "softened" for wet use ?

 

Nick.

[dannylt]

Ammo - cheers! Can I get my car back to thrashdrive it for the rest of the year? 😬

 

Nifty - my K3 ECU was indeed a £30 upgrade jobby earlier this year.

 

Nick - The wet map has the ignition backed off at some of the torque peaks, but really I hope the main difference is where you open the throttle. Currently in the wet the car slides when you touch the throttle at the apex which is annoying when you actually want to get past the person in front kicking up spray!

 

David - I am very interested in doing E85, but still not enough places selling it. You can get another 5% torque everywhere on an NA engine (much more if supercharged) - e.g. see Walker's article in the current PPC.

[metal mickey]

Danny - how selfish wanting your car back to drive(sideways no doubt),don't you realise Ammo will be cold turkey without a luvvverly Duratec to play with 😬

p.s.Have fun ❗

[Nifty]

Mike,

 

Hows Matt's Lotus coming on 🤔

Am I in danger of having to pick it up soon because I need you to fabricate an exhaust for me so we could do some bird killing with a stone whilst I'm up

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[metal mickey]

Its making progress............

 

[MikeE]

 

 

You could easily get 300bhp+ from a mildly ported and remapped 1.8 K-series (or so I'm told on blatchat )

 

Well done Ammo! keep up the good record please

 

Oh and well done Danny, don't know what for cos Ammo put all the work in, you cheque book mechanic 😳 😬

 

 

 

R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures

here

[Dobuy]

Before we had an abysmal 291.3 bhp at 8312

Yeah that is really quite abysmal, glad you have redeemed yourself AMMO 😬

 

Duratec SV, built in Dubai

[AMMO]

Dobuy

 

Yep that really was quite bad

 

MikeE

 

Half an hour's in depth research on the internet will tell you how easy it is to get 300 bhp. 😬 That is why Danny's car is the only 300 bhp Duratec to be tested at Emerald, in fact the only 300 bhp Caterham I think.

 

So the way forward for RED V 1 (Raceco engine development vehicle no. 1, which Danny keeps referring to as "my car" for some reason). Let Danny drive it a bit I suppose. Then I have new valves, top collars, cams and throttle bodies to try. The head can still be improved a teeny bit with the new valves. We should see 320 bhp by next year.

 

Next thing to do is make 300 bhp from a 2 litre. Lots of people have tried but seem to be stuck at around 280 ish bhp. I think a 2 litre would make a great sprint / hill climb engine, especially if it was put on a diet to lose some weight from the engine where possible. Any potential guinea pigs / victims out there? 😬

 

AMMO

[simonbell]

Only financially challenged wann be guniea pigs ☹️

 

Simon Bell - Caterham 7 Duratec R

I`ve seen the future.....and it`s powered by duratec Check out the website here

[MikeE]

 

Half an hour's in depth research on the internet will tell you how easy it is to get 300 bhp

 

LOL 😬 😬

 

Although bizzarrely it seems Carbon Fibre requires immense talent to produce, surely it's just like fibreglass with a bit of black dye??? 😳

 

 

 

 

R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures

here

 

Edited by - MikeE on 13 Jul 2007 11:12:29

[Graham Perry]

Surely another milestone engine to add to the Dyno-plot website ? 😬

[Julian Thompson]

Well done with that - 300 hp is awesome from such a lightweight motor *thumbup*

[AMMO]

Graham

 

Danny said he would up-load the graphs to dyno-plot this weekend. It will be interesting to compare with some of the other variations of previously built engines.

 

Thanks Julian

 

 

AMMO

[AMMO]

Gambo

 

Sorry, re-reading the thread I just realised I didn't answer your questions.

 

"Where will it stop do you think?? 10000 rpm, 320bhp?"

 

Well, for my 2.2 engine 9,000 is the limit. For what I have in mind for a 2 litre then between 9,500 and 9,800 rpm, so not that far off your 10,000 rpm. 320 bhp or there abouts is more or less the limit I think.

 

"Who needs a super charger?"

 

Everybody seems to think this is the way forward. Possibly because they see it as a "cheap" way to big power. I'm not so sure about that. You still have to build an engine with a steel crank, steel rods and forged pistons. Then you still have to fit the charger, inter-cooler, all the plumbing etc. The only thing that changes is that you don't need to go the big valves, long-winded porting route and you don't need hairy camshafts.

 

I've always looked at forced induction as a form of cheating. There is no real finesse in it, although there is skill involved in making the engine hang together. If you want big power I suppose you could whack a turbo on a Duratec and get 500 / 600 bhp. It's been done. But were is the fun in that?

 

Maybe people think you can stick a supercharger on a stock engine to get power? If you stick a supercharger on a stock 2.3 Duratec it won't be long before it cacks its pants. In my opinion you still need a fairly expensive engine to fit a supercharger to.

 

Someone is bound to come along and say that it can be done for the price of a pint, a packet of fags and a sausage roll. Personally I disagree but am willing to be proved wrong.

 

The next 12 months will be very interesting for the Duratec I think.

 

 

AMMO

[Foxy Smith]

Ammo, when I was up at Steve Greenalds getting the Keihins set up Steve Pilcher was telling me about a turbocharged Duratec they had just dynoed that was well into the 700's. I'm pretty sure he said that it was running a stock crank as well.

 

Alan

[AMMO]

Alan

 

I had heard of a 520 bhp one and a 600 + bhp one but not a 700 bhp one! There is talk of a turbo 1000bhp drag engine in the States as well.

 

AMMO

[simonbell]

I think there are links to a website about the 1000bhp one on the duratec forum.

 

Simon Bell - Caterham 7 Duratec R

I`ve seen the future.....and it`s powered by duratec Check out the website here

[DSL]

More to the point a supercharged motor will not have the knife edged throttle response of a well tuned nat asp motor, which will render it less able round a tight twisty track / hillclimb / sprint. It may be quick down the straights, but Caterham's are all about the corners arn't they

Case in point, looking at a Force single seater used in the National hillclimb championship fitted with a supercharged hayabusa motor, alot of money spent on it with all the right bits fitted, yet in this enviroment it can't even do times within 2 or 3 seconds of a nat asp 1000cc version of the same car Its not even quick through the speed traps despite having 330ish hp, which i assume is down to the inabilty to control the power delivery exiting the previous corner 🙆🏻

[metal mickey]

Cheers DSL thats cured my 'urge' for a blown Busa 😬 Better talk to captain gas flow for more power

[AMMO]

Simon

 

Did some searching. There is a guy in the States called Ed Bergenholtz who has done 7.5 second quarter mile runs with a terminal speed of 182 mph with a front wheel drive Duratec in a Mazda 6. Turbo on methanol. This is probably the 1000 bhp Duratec I've heard about.

 

DSL

 

You make some good points. Having worked with race bikes quite a lot I know what an increase in power can do to a chassis and handling. With the increase in power a previously sweet handling machine can turn into a nightmare. Maybe if the guys that ran the Force had sorted the chassis out it may have ended up quicker. Who knows?

 

Personally I will always prefer N/A engines although I have worked on some supercharged engines in the past and would have no objections to working on them again in the future. The only problem I personally see with forced induction is that it doesn't tax the intellect that much and that everything I have been trying to learn about engines over the last 25 years becomes more or less redundant.

 

Mike

 

Matt "Blackbirdman" told me your car is fast enough 😬

 

 

AMMO