BMW/Titan LSD Viability

[BigCol]

11 minutes ago, Geoff Brown said:

Having had my Diff overhauled by Steve I am surprised he could not set up the CWP instead of replacement, which for whatever reason he cannot.

I had the carbon/oil soup which rendered all the service items useless so Steve had to completely rebuild the diff from scratch with new bearings, seals clips & shims. He set up the CWP, which he said only had a slight polish on it. It is virtually silent. 

That was precisely my situation and what Steve did to my diff last winter…. but it’s not silent! 🥲

That said, am I misdiagnosing the noise?  Might it not be the diff?

At about 40/50mph and above, there is a whirring/grinding noise from behind/to my left when on throttle.  Lifting off, all’s quiet as it is at lower speeds.

[BigCol]

On 16/06/2023 at 13:32, ScottR400D said:

"They are aware of what problems this caused to owners both mechanically & financially.  They were disappointed that owners had found alternative replacements outside of the Caterham product line."

No mention of compensating those owners I suppose..........? 

On 16/06/2023 at 14:34, Geoff Brown said:

Compensation - forget it. It was a case of we made our choice outside of warranty.

CC now have a CEO who has a long standing Automotive background who I believe is grasping the nettle. NOT a Bean counter.

Whilst not compensation as such, would Bob sanction the supply of an open diff at cost plus a handling/shipping fee?

That would be a pragmatic solution, he’d get kudos and the business wouldn’t be out of pocket… (though we might find out what mark-up/margin their parts have!)

[Geoff Brown]

On 12/11/2023 at 14:03, BigCol said:

Whilst not compensation as such, would Bob sanction the supply of an open diff at cost plus a handling/shipping fee?

That would be a pragmatic solution, he’d get kudos and the business wouldn’t be out of pocket… (though we might find out what mark-up/margin their parts have!)

You could try that angle, worth a try. 'Uncle Bob' is a listener & an engineer with some guilty concerns about the TITAN fiasco but you would have to really make the case. I can PM his email address if you so wish ?

[Geoff Brown]

On 12/11/2023 at 13:43, GulfSeven said:

Okay, update time...

Two things have changed since last year - firstly the diff is now full of RRT oil, and secondly I have a new (calibrated) torque wrench. Anyway, today's test showed a breakout torque of 38 lb.ft. Has it actually dropped by 4 lb.ft? I'm not sure. It could equally be the oil or it could be the torque wrench. Next year's test will be with the same oil and torque wrench so we'll have to wait and see. Either way, 38 lb.ft is fine for now.

38 ft/lbs after the time & use you have mentioned is not bad at all. I would take that torque as read & use it as a base line for next year. BUT remember that TITAN break out torque can reduce exponentially so be ready for a surprise in 12 months time.........or not ! 

[PhilT]

On 11/11/2023 at 20:46, ScottR400D said:

Sintered. 

Possibly carbon plates in this one (May 2018).......I checked the diff and there was less than 12lbft of preload (that was the lowest my torque wrench goes down to) I extracted some oil today to check the condition, it's very black, although doesn't smell like it's been overheated. The diff is quiet which I hope means the CW & P are still in good condition. I just need to decide which way I go from here.......

Edited November 20, 2023 by PhilT

[ScottR400D]

51 minutes ago, PhilT said:

Possibly carbon plates in this one (May 2018).......I checked the diff and there was less than 12lbft of preload (that was the lowest my torque wrench goes down to) I extracted some oil today to check the condition, it's very black, although doesn't smell like it's been overheated. The diff is quiet which I hope means the CW & P are still in good condition. I just need to decide which way I go from here.......

Not necessarily carbon and I’m pretty sure that they started with sintered quite a while before 18, though I could be wrong. Maybe not.  
 

Is this the car you were only looking at a few weeks ago? Did you buy? 

[PhilT]

Just now, ScottR400D said:

Not necessarily carbon and I’m pretty sure that they started with sintered quite a while before 18, though I could be wrong. Maybe not.  
 

Is this the car you were only looking at a few weeks ago? Did you buy? 

Yes it was, I did buy it and I love it! Thanks for the heads-up about the diff rebuild at least I knew what I was letting myself in for. It sounds like there is plenty of love for the Tracsport LSD as a replacement here, does it perform as well as the Titan (when they are working that is!).

[ScottR400D]

That’s good, glad you like it. Hope the CWP is OK but think it will be as long as the diff hadn’t been run to the point of breaking apart. 

IMO, and I think anyone who's gone the same route, the Tracsport is streets ahead of the Titan by any metric. 

More reliable, totally quiet, more effective, you don’t know it’s there except for the way the car becomes much more stable under power. 

I’d got into the habit, when overtaking things, of pulling out and getting the car straight before planting the throttle. Flooring the throttle then pulling out, the car would slide and squirm, sometimes it would do that if you hit a bump mid acceleration. In hindsight the Titan was pretty well worn for quite some miles before it let go but at only 7k odd miles from brand new, I didn’t question its condition. 

Never had to do that with the TS. Now the car goes exactly where it points and is much more predictable. Now coming up to the same miles at which the Titan went bang and the preload hasn’t dropped at all, the oil shows mild discolouration only and it functions as it always has. 

If you're going to just be on road/touring you might consider an ATB but if you plan any track stuff I could only recommend the TS. 

I drafted a set of instructions for removing and replacing the diff if you’d find it useful, others on here have. PM me if so. 

 

[PhilT]

Great news! Thanks again for the prompt and complete reply, that gives me all the info I need to make my decision. 
Thanks again ScottR400D. I’ll PM you for your removal/install notes too. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by PhilT
Typo

[BigCol]

11 hours ago, ScottR400D said:

I drafted a set of instructions for removing and replacing the diff if you’d find it useful, others on here have. PM me if so. 

I can confirm that they’re very useful!  
(I’ve augmented mine with the fixings’ sizes too, if that’d be of use… 🤷🏼‍♂️ )

[PhilT]

6 minutes ago, BigCol said:

I can confirm that they’re very useful!  
(I’ve augmented mine with the fixings’ sizes too, if that’d be of use… 🤷🏼‍♂️ )

Thanks BigCol, I have the instructions from ScottR400D which are very helpful. I think i should be ok now, but I’ll be sure to ask if I get stuck!

I have the diff out and will speak with SPD and arrange a visit early next week for fault diagnosis and replacement. I’ve ordered the replacement bolts etc from CC, apart from the nylon spacers as they are out of stock, has anyone found an alternative source for these?

What has happened with all the faulty Titan diffs? Has anyone found a market for these? 

Thanks to everyone for all their assistance and advice, it’s much appreciated. 

[ScottR400D]

16 minutes ago, PhilT said:

Thanks BigCol, I have the instructions from ScottR400D which are very helpful. I think i should be ok now, but I’ll be sure to ask if I get stuck!

I have the diff out and will speak with SPD and arrange a visit early next week for fault diagnosis and replacement. I’ve ordered the replacement bolts etc from CC, apart from the nylon spacers as they are out of stock, has anyone found an alternative source for these?

What has happened with all the faulty Titan diffs? Has anyone found a market for these? 

Thanks to everyone for all their assistance and advice, it’s much appreciated. 

The nylon spacers (for the A frame?) can be got on eBay for a lot less than CC. From memory they’re 30 x 1 with 17mm hole. You might get them with 16mm hole but it’s easy enough to enlarge. 
 

[ScottR400D]

On 12/11/2023 at 13:51, BigCol said:

That was precisely my situation and what Steve did to my diff last winter…. but it’s not silent! 🥲

That said, am I misdiagnosing the noise?  Might it not be the diff?

At about 40/50mph and above, there is a whirring/grinding noise from behind/to my left when on throttle.  Lifting off, all’s quiet as it is at lower speeds.

Is this noise definitely there under power? Many of us get a chattering of the CWP when on a very light throttle. Disappears under power or on overrun. 
 

I discussed this with Steve P and he thinks it’s the CWP being excited by the firing pulses and light flywheel. It seems to do no harm and is easily avoided by either changing down or giving it a little more or less throttle. 

[John Vine]

3 hours ago, PhilT said:

... apart from the nylon spacers as they are out of stock, has anyone found an alternative source for these?

I bought these from Rico Plastics (30x17x1).

JV

[BigCol]

4 hours ago, PhilT said:

I’ve ordered the replacement bolts etc from CC, apart from the nylon spacers as they are out of stock, has anyone found an alternative source for these?

I got all my replacement bits (and few other things - radiator bobbins, track rod bellows - for other winter jobs last year) from Minty at Redline.

[PhilT]

5 hours ago, John Vine said:

I bought these from Rico Plastics (30x17x1).

JV

Thanks John

[PhilT]

5 hours ago, BigCol said:

I got all my replacement bits (and few other things - radiator bobbins, track rod bellows - for other winter jobs last year) from Minty at Redline.

Thanks BigCol! 

[Mrp]

Hi BigCol

Can I assume our discussions are over ?

Thanks

Mrp

[BigCol]

22 hours ago, Mrp said:

Can I assume our discussions are over ?

Not necessarily… but won’t be making an ultimate decision for a little while - sorry, should’ve updated you.

[Colin Heseltine]

Tim - Gulf Seven,

Interesting to see your breakout torque dropped by 4ft.lb when swapping diff oil.  I changed to the Redline LSD oil an mine dropped 4ft.lbs from 43 to 39ft.lbs.  420R just over 2 1/2 years old with 16500 miles on clock.

Colin

[7 wonders of the world]

perfectly normal for preload (not sure why everyone seems to call this breakout torque now) to be affected by a lubricant change, the fresh lube will be free from all the friction enhancing debris etc and able to perform its slip proerties to full effect.

 

[Geoff Brown]

Some limited news on the replacement LSD unit that CC are working on.

I have recently contacted Bob Laishley in case he had forgotten me with regards to the offer made  during our on line TITAN critique for me to 'customer test' whatever solution CC will come up with.

He has not forgotten but to quote him 'a solution is some months away'. 

Watch this space !

Edited February 8 by Geoff Brown

[Dave Hardcastle]

Well done Geoff. I have to say, unless Caterham are designing and building one of their own LSDs why it taking so long? They just need to find a suitable unit with a manufacturer that can keep Caterham supplied with sufficient units, then order them.

[Geoff Brown]

2 minutes ago, Dave Hardcastle said:

Well done Geoff. I have to say, unless Caterham are designing and building one of their own LSDs why it taking so long? They just need to find a suitable unit with a manufacturer that can keep Caterham supplied with sufficient units, then order them.

I agree. Even a Drexler is relatively easy to acquire off the shelf. I have no idea what CC is up to. Maybe a highly modified TITAN, god forbid !

It is a great pity that Steve at SPC does not have the facility for fast mass production as otherwise his unit would be the one to choose.

[7 wonders of the world]

Steve can make whatever quantities are required, getting CC to commit to placing timely orders which respect the timelines involved though is another matter ......

Edited February 10 by 7 wonders of the world