BMW/Titan LSD Viability

[BigCol]

I am confident CC themselves were unaware of the service requirements... and applied them retrospectively once the failures started.

[ScottR400D]

#626.....as did Titan themselves as far as I can find out. 

As soon as the failures started the maintenance requirements were quietly slipped into the picture.....

....though they're still quite well hidden from the new or prospective owner. 

[BigCol]

I shouldn't've... but I have calculated that as a "consumable", the cost of my differential was more per mile than petrol or tyres...

[Geoff Brown]

UPDATE - At long last David Ridley has answered my email letter to Bob L about the low mean time to failure of the carbon plate version, time, trouble & expenditure to replace & lack of servicing info for the Titan LSU.

There will be a Zoom call between myself, Bob L & Simon Lambert regarding the problems as soon as I return to the UK. Which will be some time away !

Could be interesting, but......  ??

[BigCol]

[Geoff Brown]

For those that avidly follow this post ! I am having a Teams meet with Bob Laishly this coming Friday.

I know that 'we' may not get anything out of it but at least Bob has the good grace to talk.

Although the problem with carbon plates is now largely historic it is worth the chat. BUT, someone (sorry cannot place the name) reported  on 1st March a six year old, 8000 mile TITAN in a 360R lunched itself. Black oil confirmed failure.

Will report back subject to disclosure restrictions that may be enforced....or not.

[StevehS3]

If it helps Geoff, my 152hp 310R carbon plate diff was knackered at 4,000 miles. The carbon plate versions certainly were not fit for purpose. Good luck! 

[ScottR400D]

Geoff, please try to find out why they still don't make clear to prospective owners the onerous maintenance needs and operational shortcomings of the Titan LSD, whether carbon or sintered plates.

 

[BigCol]

Good luck Geoff - let us know as much as you're allowed to of the conversation (maybe record/transcribe it  )

As mentioned in #628, my chocolate LSD effectively cost me more per mile than fuel and tyres - and judging by StevehS3's comment in #632, that was a comparative result!

[ScottR400D]

I spent more to resolve my diff issue than the cost of fuel and tyres too; and more than it cost me to upgrade to RBTBs..........

 

[Mrp]

Just to add as part of seeing this thread originally I tested my 2017 420 R SV Diff at 3500K mls (car purchased from Caterham used in summer 2020) and the LSD was knackered no backlash at all with the tests, so I bought a non LSD diff and got Tracsport put his LSD in which was then fitted by Nick Potter, this has been brilliant ever since.

As has been said above the RBTB were about the same cost

I guess I also spent more to resolve this at roughly £ 3400 for new diff, Tracsport and fitting.

Not sure if this is useful or not.

PS if anybody wants to go down the same route I am happy to work out a deal with my old diff which is compete and checked but just has knackered carbon plates.

[Geoff Brown]

So fresh from my 'Teams' call with Bob L & Simon L & before my memory fades this is the upshot of the discussion.

Firstly I would say that Bob & Simon were open, honest & good natured about everything discussed. 

1) They related the history, which most of us are aware of, sintered plates then back to carbon to reduce NVH. Then the problems.

2) CC were aware of the ongoing problem just prior to COVID but with meager resources at the time there was very little done. But they had identified the problem. But not the enormity ?

3) I mentioned sintered plates & that the NVH & heavy clonking that exists even today with a lot of units is not acceptable. That was agreed.

4) I presented the possibiliy that the TITAN may have not been set up correctly prior to final assembly, in either form, but now especially sintered plate units. Simon stated that the BMW/TITAN combo is assembled by TITAN before the back plate is fitted by CC. Take from that what you will.

3) It was admitted that not publishing the TITAN servicing requirements very early on was a big mistake for which there is regret. This, apparently is now being resolved. They are aware of what problems this caused to owners both mechanically & financially.  They were disappointed that owners had found alternative replacements outside of the Caterham product line. To which I stated that other superior alternatives were available for owners that offered better engineered solutions bringing piece of mind & mechanical longevity. As well as some financial security.

4) My abiding opinion is that if the TITAN service requirements had been published from day one then today all owners may have been in a better place ?  Even though the need to drop a major component every two to three years for an overhaul is just not on. Agreed.

5) Longevity - It was agreed that the in service cycle was relatively short for such a component.  We discussed the math involving the servicing of TITAN v other types & it was agreed that the TITAN could be a financial burden over a reasonable ownership period. Both agreed that a more robust unit with a 'fit & forget' policy is the way forward.

6) Bob & Simon inquired of me what solution I had in mind to which I stated a far more robustly designed LSU with long in service life that could possibly run on one specified oil spec to narrow down any in use problems. To give perspective to the required design I compared the TITAN & Tracsport as to a matchbox & building brick !  I mentioned that the TITAN was installed in a short run of Ford Diffs before the intro of the BMW diff with the Ford not anecdotally having any problems whatsoever. Simon agreed, so I mentioned that could it be something to do with the BMW casing as well ?

7) I got the feeling that if Steve Perks could push his unit out in great numbers that is what CC would opt for.

8) CC have only eight engineers working several different on going solutions with the Seven. Financial support is good but scope can be limited & time pressured. I was informed that the BMW/TITAN is now at the top of the 'to do list'. So at long last a priority. Too late for most !

9) At the end of the meeting I was informed of a way forward that CC are actively looking at developing a replacement for the current TITAN with a TITAN ! They are hoping that development will create longevity & serviceability. There also may be an option going forward that may happen. It has legs but will not be made public for some time. Sorry I was sworn to secrecy ! I did state that there are other manufacturers out there, Wavetrak, Drexlar etc but I got the opinion that CC may be still looking at unit price.

There was general chat - owners are the best salesmen, you need to be more open & talk more about technical & service issues etc etc.

I was thanked for coming forward to openly discuss the TITAN problem. When the prototype TITAN Mk2 is available maybe I could assist in some back to back testing. Well I do have a Tracsport BMW Diff so what better comparison. Obviously I did not turn down the invite !

All this extracted from hastily scribbled notes while talking & from memory. If anything pops up in the grey matter I will update accordingly.

 

[ScottR400D]

Thanks for doing that Geoff, you went to a lot of trouble, hopefully it will pay off for many. I do wonder why it had to rest on you as an affected individual to do all this but hey ho....... Thanks again. 
 

"They are aware of what problems this caused to owners both mechanically & financially.  They were disappointed that owners had found alternative replacements outside of the Caterham product line."

No mention of compensating those owners I suppose..........? 

They were disappointed? How do they think the owners who were forced to find alternatives felt? Especially when it involved significant expense and effort? 

As for the issue at last being given priority, that's cold comfort for those affected and I wouldn't be holding my breath if I were a prospective owner in any case. 
Actions speak louder than words and action is well overdue. 

[Geoff Brown]

ScottR400D #638 - Seemed the right thing to do. In these current times people appear to be reluctant to peer over the battlements, volunteer or make representations due to unwarranted push back.

Compensation - forget it. It was a case of we made our choice outside of warranty.

CC now have a CEO who has a long standing Automotive background who I believe is grasping the nettle. NOT a Bean counter.

Not holding my breath but I sincerely believe that CC are working on it for the benefit of themselves, new owners & future customers.

I have been assured that I will receive updates but only time will tell.

Watch this space !

 

 

 

 

 

[ScottR400D]

"Seemed the right thing to do. In these current times people appear to be reluctant to peer over the battlements, volunteer or make representations due to unwarranted push back."

You're right. 

Compensation - forget it. It was a case of we made our choice outside of warranty.

For me it wasn't a choice. My original Titan was fully rebuilt after its premature total failure but was, as seems to be accepted by CC unacceptably noisy and harsh. 
I took the matter up directly with CC but all I got in return was the 'servicing requirement' that had never been mentioned before and "no idea" in response to other queries. 

To say we 'made our choice outside of warranty' is frankly disingenuous and cheap. No surprise at all to me. Even 3+ years on CC can't offer a fit for purpose solution; what were people meant to do?
 
 

 

[BigCol]

As Peter said, thanks for taking one for the team and pushing Caterham regarding this Geoff.

The fact you had this conversation at all and that it seems to have been open and conciliatory is very positive.

However we are the ones wearing the time, effort and cost as a result of a component they supplied that was not fit for purpose.  

Saying that they lack a solution and are continuing to develop one after so long whilst saying it's a pity we sought solutions outside Caterham's products is totally contradictory and taking the  .

As you said Geoff, I believe that CC are working on it for the benefit of themselves, new owners & future customers.  I agree - we're not the people they care about; they've got our money - it's that of others they want.

Though I continue to be thoroughly grumpy over this, I believe thanks to your efforts, we're in a better place. 

[StevehS3]

Thanks to Geoff for taking the lead and initiative. I think many of us bought a new open diff from CC - it is just that we didn't want to continue down the Titan LSD route for obvious reasons.

In the industries I have worked our #1 priority would be to make it right for the customer in the best way possible. The cost would then go down the supply line to whoever was at fault. IMO the carbon plate version would be classed as epidemic failure. 

[ScottR400D]

It seems, and not for the first time, that CC and Titan came up with an idea and then opted to let customers  test it, then washed their hands of those folk as it failed. 

I was told by RRT that early carbon plates worked OK then there was a change in supplier/spec that created this scenarios, though I am aware of failures going back to around when they were first introduced as far as it is possible to know. 

[StevehS3]

Which reminds me that I still have this sat in the corner of the garage gathering dust! 
I though I might take a look inside but it is probably time for it to go.

[Drakman]

I bet there would be a few on here that have similar photos!

[ScottR400D]

Dozens, I should think. CC must have done well from sales of open diffs!

 

[StevehS3]

"It's a shame we went elsewhere" 

a shame for who? ;)

[ScottR400D]

The whole episode brings shame on CC IMO. It's far from their only failing but one of the very worst. 

If anyone is to really benefit from this one might hope there'd be a shift in the quality of aftercare from CC but I doubt we're even close to that. 

[Simon.Rogers]

Does anyone have a Ford Titan LSD sitting on a shelf they want a few £ for?

[ScottR400D]

“When the prototype TITAN Mk2 is available maybe I could assist in some back to back testing. Well I do have a Tracsport BMW Diff so what better comparison. Obviously I did not turn down the invite”

Any news on that front Geoff?