BMW/Titan LSD Viability

[StevehS3]

I don't like to read or hear bad things said about CC but being an owner of a carbon plate LSD (now sat in the corner of my garage - should really go for scrap) it is impossible to defend them in this case. What did help me out is the club and in particular Geoff for tabling the issue and ScottR400D for providing the help and info which gave me the confidence to replace the diff myself. 

[7Up]

Dec 2018 420R, 10,000 miles, 1 diff oil change, currently reading 42ft/lbs

[Geoff Brown]

Would any one like me to publish the whole reply that Macd sent to me ? The reply & respondent had all the characteristics of the Titan LSU - chocolate fire guard variety.

Good to see that this thread will not go away. Views & posts must be some sort of record ?

 

[ScottR400D]

#528 Yes please Geoff, I'd love to see that. 

[ScottR400D]

#527 There are a few examples of the Titan lasting a while and it's quite common with lower powered cars which have correspondingly less torque. 

With a 420, however, at 10k miles, regardless of the preload, I'd be at least following the recommendation of both CC and Titan and having a rebuild. That could be done for £500 or so and avoid a much bigger bill in the not too distant future unless you're lucky. 
 

[BigCol]

ScottR400D said FCD Club?

Failed (or alternative synonymous adjective starting with an F) Caterham Diff Club.

Actually, my membership has been followed by someone else I know whose 420R's diff went after 10k or so.

I realise I am (fashionably) late to this particular party and many have suffered the financial pain already but seeing Geoff Brown's correspondence where Caterham "committed to finding a solution" would be interesting.

[ScottR400D]

ScottR400D said FCD Club?

Failed (or alternative synonymous adjective starting with an F) Caterham Diff Club.
 

Ahh! Welcome! (I'm probably a founder member!)

[StevehS3]

Mine was knackered when I got it at 4,200 miles and it's a 310 with a Carbon/chocolate LSD. 

[7 wonders of the world]

I'd like to see the reply to please Geoff 

[Colin Heseltine]

I have a 420R which was new end of March last year.  Currently done around 8050 miles, so approx 500 miles month since then. Checked pre-load last week prior to a Donington trackday (first one for the car).  Pre-load was just over 43ft. lbs. The car still has the remainder of its 2 year warranty.  Within the next 2 months a further 3000 miles will be on the clock.  I guess by the time my two years warranty will be about to finish the car will have around 13000 to 14000 mile on the clock.

If Caterham are suggesting a rebuild at 10,000 miles should I ask them to do it FOC, because I don't see why I should pay for something like that within the warranty period.

Colin

[ScottR400D]

#535 I and I'm sure most on here would support that attitude. 

Bear in mind that until about 18m or so ago, CC didn't have the maintenance requirement and it's still not in the owners handbook, as far as I know but I expect they'll just say it's regular maintenance, your problem.

 
 

 

[Benton]

#535

May have changed but Caterham Warranty used to be 24 months or upto12,000 miles for new cars

[Geoff Brown]

And here for your delight & delectation is the reply to my letter 'having a go' at G Macd,

Form whatever opinion you want. Uncharacteristically I reserve comment in case I end up in court !!

[Geoff Brown]

For some reason the system did not like my attempt to post the Macd letter in #538 so second try.

Here it is for your delight & delectation.

Form what opinion you will but I will reserve myself from doing so lest I end up in court !!

[NCronin]

Colin, I bought a Supersport from CC Gatwick two years ago as a 'dealer approved' car. I raised the concern regarding the Titan diff (clunky/noisy) after almost a year of ownership and CC investigated at the annual service and agreed that the diff should be removed and inspected by Road Race Transmission (RRT). This obviously occurred just as the warranty was running out but CC accepted that as I had raised the concern before the end of the warranty, they accepted the full cost of whatever was needed. The following advice from RRT to CC was that a new diff was required and CC removed and replaced a new diff, albeit another Titan, supplied by RRT.

It's still clunky/noisy but have been told by Sevens & Classics as well as RRT, that it is operating as expected with no cause to do anything at all. Sounds bloody horrible at low speed and turning. However, as stated either in this thread (or some of the alternatives), I'm keeping a close eye on oil quality and colour as well as resigning myself that the diff will come out this winter for a full inspection by RRT. I agree - there is no way that any repair, service or replacement should be down to you - it's covered under the original warranty as long as you have raised it with CC IN WRITING before the warranty end date. However, note that any replacement diff will not be further covered by your original CC warranty. Note that mine is the standard Sigma and is purely a road car - no track days planned or desired. I'm waiting for someone on this forum to come up with a better alternative than simply driving it and hoping that it doesn't fail catastrophically somewhere. Or I have to bite the bullet at some point and pay for a better solution that doesn't carry that risk. Bloody disgraceful. 

[ScottR400D]

#540 Of course that is the problem with the Titan. If they have carbon discs they don't last any length of time, if they have sintered discs they last longer but make awful noises throughout their life that many find intolerable. 

To paraphrase Mr McDonald, there are reports of acceptably quiet Titans that last a long time 
though they seem to be few and far between, and are also grouped around a particular duty-cycle of the car and/or lower powered models. 

I'm not sure Colin will get the same response as you got, because he's not specifically complaining about intolerable noise or anything, just questioning the ethics behind such an item needing expensive 'servicing' so soon in its life. I would suggest that his only argument is that he wasn't told that such servicing was required when he bought the car, though that advice was in circulation at that point. 

I would hope that CC accept his case but wouldn't hold my breath, it would possibly open floodgates for them. 

As for your case, I would do the maths on the cost of regular removal and servicing of the Titan against a (hopefully) fit and forget alternative. 

[Geoff Brown]

As ScottR400D #541 mentioned one has to bear in mind lots of factors.

TITAN recommend servicing the unit every 12 months, race season or every 10,000 miles. So accounting for the Seven average annual mileage the LSD will possibly have to be dropped every three years. If the car attends track days then potentially the mileage period will decrease. So the diff could have to be dropped every two years or less depending on NVH, break off torque & oil check. Or the fact it just fails which is highly likely especially if carbon plates are involved. But this does not obviate failure of a sintered plate variety by a long chalk. 

DIY rebuild kit = £310 direct from TITAN - current price

R & R rebuild = £540 - current price

SPC upgrade & rebuild approximately £1800 with the knowledge that the LS unit will potentially far exceed the TITAN life & service requirements if preventative maintenance is regularly carried out.

Irrespective of car usage if the LSD has to be dropped then the option for the SPC replacement could be an obvious choice unless you DIY service. Not many will want to go down that road.

So with the TITAN, current cost £1080 over a four to six year period which does not include replacement of attaching parts, oil etc. If car is a keeper knowing that one will have to go through the same old routine on a regular calendar/mileage basis could become a potential bind. If nothing else one will be well practiced !!

Or bite the bullet knowing that a rebuilt diff with the SPC unit theoretically may never have to be dropped as long as preventative maintenance is carried out. 

Oh....and prices will continue to rise.

 

[ScottR400D]

Geoff, could I add that if the diff needs a full rebuild, which is quite common if any worn or broken bits from the LSD have been wandering around the housing, the costs can be much more? And if you're not prepared to remove and refit the diff in the car, there's another few hundred of a bill.  

When my BMW Titan failed at about 7500 miles, it needed all new bearings and seals and I had a bill from R and R for over £900 for the rebuild. 

IME you would be lucky to get away with £540 more than once unless you're rebuilding well before it becomes necessary. 

[Benton]

So anybody done 10,000 miles on the SPC unit yet?

[ScottR400D]

I think many have managed that, not too many with higher powered cars though. 

[R400svn]

I have done 6000 miles and 1 trackday with SPC so far and all seems as it was when it was fitted. My titan had done just over 10000miles as was beyond repair or rebuild. Very happy with the SPC. 
I have also tested a Quaife for 1000 miles and if i was only going to use the car for road use i would use if all the time. Drove nice, was predictable and a little quieter. 
 

[Amos91]

Tracsport diffs were fitted to the Palmersport pursuit Caterhams which are used pretty much every week day during the 'on' season. From reports, not one has been sent back still years on. 

[ScottR400D]

#547 I understand that the rest of that story is that the Titans in the Palmersport cars were being rebuilt at least twice a year until they were replaced by the Tracsports. 

[Nigel B]

#544   Well, that question prompted me to head for the garage to check my mileage & I'm happy to report that I've covered 10,901 miles since the Tracsport was fitted, including one track day.

Although I've never checked the preload, the diff is functioning exactly as it was when it was first fitted. It's quiet & unobtrusive & provides bags of traction & very progressive characteristics when traction is (finally!) overcome.

I've changed the oil a couple of times & the oil comes out the same colour that it went in (in contrast to the black sludge that came out when the previous carbon plate Titan was fitted), with a minimal amount of smooth metallic material on the magnetic plug.

 I'm very happy that I made the change.

[Geoff Brown]

I have only completed 4500 miles with the Tracsport LSU after installation in October 2020.

During the last winter service the mag plug had only break in finings on, the oil was still the correct colour, the break off torque as advertised & the wheels rotated in the same direction. It is very quiet in operation though the CWP sometimes makes what I would call a low volume mechanical 'gargling noise' on feathered throttle or some times on the over run. Otherwise operation as advertised & long may that continue.

I intend to change the oil this Winter as even with the accumulated low mileage a two year point to change seems appropriate.