Catch Can Questions

[CtrMint]

I've written a for sale ad now, I've just had my fill of it. Before posting in anger I'm taking the time to chill and get the decision straight in my head.  I appreciate contacting "McDonald" might be an option, but I'm not interested in a fight with them.   This might seem a little defeatist however my position is heavily influenced by CC's behaviour during the week of delivery, which left me feeling CC are pretty poor. I'll explain.  

When I ordered the car in May through Oakmere, Oakmere checked with CC and confirmed they could deliver to the IOM for a cost of 1500.00 inclusive.  I thought bargain, fantastic I'm happy with the extra so I committed to the kit.  CC also confirmed CC staff would handle the delivery end to end.  As the estimated delivery date approached I attempted to contact Caterham to offer what assistance I could with respect to travel arrangements to the IOM, hopefully helping them pick appropriate ferry crossings etc.  CC told me to speak to Oakmere only.  I attempted to offer such support through Oakmere, but they were confident everything was in hand.  I'm going to be clear here Oakmere have no responsibility or fault in anything here, I'd like to make that totally clear, and their customer care is always brilliant.  They've taken care of me and my Exige brilliantly.  I also have a degree of sympathy for Oakmere, because CC put them in a difficult position.

During the week of delivery CC contacted Oakmere, and subsequently Oakmere contacted me.  CC were seeking additional funds to cover the cost of delivery.  In my view there was a lot of b******t offered, suggesting the ferry operators had changed schedules and costs.  In the end I did get to the bottom of the situation, it turned out that nobody at CC had checked the cost with the ferry operator at the point of sale, instead they’d stuck a finger in the air and come up with a cost based on distance to Scotland, they were out by 1K.  Oakmere eventually declined to get involved and referred me direct to some director at CC, sorry his name escapes me, probably for the better.  Why?  well during the conversations he had the arrogance to suggest that because I’d written the delivery cost on the order form it was not legally binding and that it was representative of a quote only at best.  At this point I  was fuming beyond belief.  In response to his statement I suggested he reconsider his statement as I would be happy to void the entire legal agreement and request a full refund.   

Ultimately CC came back suggesting they could deliver using a race trailer.  I was against this approach from the outset as I felt the engine and components wouldn’t be handled using the same processes normally used when their commercial wagon is in operation.  CC (unnamed director) assured me they use both a race trailer and the wagon all the time for kit deliveries.  At this point I had no real option with respect to refusal.  The reason this worked for CC is a towed race trailer was not deemed a commercial vehicle by the ferry operator and was thus cheaper.  I did of course question why the whole situation arose in the first, if this was standard practice.   When my kit arrived, the very nice and friendly delivery bloke had a hell of job getting it all off and I suspected there is no way this is passing health and safety for lifting etc.  So I asked the delivery chap whether this was normal and he clearly stated never,  the race trailer is only used to pick up and deliver complete cars.  Conclusions, I’d been sold a pack of b******t from the start.

It’s for this reason I have little appetite to deal with CC in terms of any form of complaint and I feel they are both incapable and intentionally misleading.  I know I’ve got off topic here, but it does add context to my reluctance to follow the recommendation many of you are offering.  

Support and help I truly appreciate!

Sorry if I got on my soap box here!

[ScottR400D]

You’ve every reason to feel bad and let down by CC. Another appalling example of their poor customer service. 

I would strongly suggest that you just buy, if necessary, the std rad and OC. The cost will be much less than you will likely lose selling the part built kit. 

After, sell off the race rad, overall the cost will be much lower for you.  

Even if you had to buy another set of pipes, you’ll be quids in. 

Remember, once you’ve built the car, you’ll rarely, if ever, need CC support. You’ll get more on here and from independent specialists. 

[John Vine]

Where do you measure the oil temp John?

As I have a wet sump, at the blue sump plug:

JV

[John Vine]

I agree wholeheartedly with that well-reasoned proposal, and I would recommend you give that suggestion very serious thought, not least from the financial angle.  As a way to mitigate your distressing experience, do bear in mind that what you've done is to purchase a cracking car, not shares in the manufacturer.   Happily, your future support, including warranty work, can come from Oakmere as your contract is with them.    

However, if you haven't already done so, and before you pull the plug on CC entirely, I would suggest that you ask G MacDonald to study this thread and let you have his full and formal reply. 

JV

 

 

 

[CtrMint]

 It is important to consider I have additional costs probably in the region of 2k to test and register this car in UK and then IOM.  Adding costs of the rad and cooler starts to get very expensive.

i think if I could achieve anywhere 37k I’d jump.  Not even sure if that’s sensible, but based on used driven cars it seems sensible.

[ScottR400D]

But that’s a significant loss isn’t it? Didn’t you mention you were in for £42k?

A new rad and OC is under £400; it will fit and you can afterwards have a battle with CC over a (relatively) lesser matter of getting the unneeded stuff credited. 

[John Vine]

 It is important to consider I have additional costs probably in the region of 2k to test and register this car in UK and then IOM.

But surely you'd already incorporated those costs in your initial purchase decision?

Even if your original budget of £42K included that £2K, selling at £37K (while avoiding IVA etc) would still crystallize a £3K loss.  That's painful!  Financially, you'd do better to complete the build, get the reg and then sell (assuming you'd still want to).  There must be someone on the IOM who would be interested in a practically brand new 420R -- built, IVA'd and registered?  And it would represent quite a bargain for the buyer as the factory-build charge is around £3K.

JV

[ScottR400D]

I agree with John though I would hope that a successful completion with the other bits would see you keep the car. 

You really don’t need CC once it’s built! 

 

[CtrMint]

it is a loss for sure, yes the total charge was 42,300.  I've basically paid an extra 1k for delivery in there, so I guess the car would normally cost 41,300.00 to a mainland resident.  I think a 4k saving to encourage a sale and overcome the location isn't unrealistic.  

I bought a Caterham as I always wanted to build one, having done 75% of it, I can honestly say I just want to see the back of it.  I feel the customer experience is terrible, the engineering of the product highly suspect and honestly I'm just exhausted trying to get answers.  Take my last email to Derek, as below;

"Derek,

I’m unfortunately again struggling with the radiator configuration, and I’m starting to suspect the setup is very poorly designed, given this I would like to raise certain issues. 

Before I do I would like to request photographs of an S3 420  installation using the same setup.  I’d very much like to see how the factory is overcoming the issues I will describe below.  Previous images sent were for an SV and so the dimensions were different.

In summary there are a number of problem areas.

1. Poor fitting of radiator top hose, specifically insufficient reception of hose to provide ample clamping surface of jubilee.
2. Inadequate clearance of and interference with catch tank.
3. Interference with rear left hand side nose cone receiver.
4. Inability to mount nose cone due to interference with radiator.

Details

1) The top hose supplied is clearly designed for the radiator not supplied in my kit, where the union between the hose and radiator top port is more central within the chassis.  Whilst I can bend the hose down the proximity of the the port to the bobbin and chassis mount prevents adequate overlap onto the radiator hose port as shown in the images below.  I have attempted various approaches to solving the issues, and found there to be none, other than hacking down the bobbin and forcing passed the chassis mount.  I don’t believe such an approach to be acceptable.  There is no vertical movement in the mounting so I don’t see how it is possible to achieve the clearance required for appropriate positioning of the jubilee.

2) Once the top hose is bent down to the radiator port the hose interferes with the catch tank which is now mounted as per the instructions.  The interference is against the tank top and the existing rubber hose already installed. I’m not sure of the impact of the interference in terms of product longevity, however it is clear I cannot remove the tank without removing the top hose.  I feel this is a significant design issue on both accounts. 

3) Once the top hose is bent down, it rubs against the rear left hand side nose cone bracket, which I suspect in time would cause product failure.  Whilst I maybe able to cable tie the hose to something I do feel this is a fudge to work around the root issue which is forcing the hose into a position it is not designed for as mentioned in point 1).  I’ve yet to identify where such cable ties should be deployed.

4) I have to date been unable to mount the nose cone.  Clearance between the radiator top and the nose seems to be zero or at least practically zero.  At best I have been able to mount one side only, even then the nose appears to be resting on the radiator.  Due to the position of the radiator within the nose it is difficult to assess exactly what the situation is here.  Is there a compatibility issue here?

Thank you for your time and support and I look forward to receiving your reply."

 

And his response.

"Hello Mark,

I have attached some photos from a S3 car."

___

That is it, just some images! Should I have explicitly demanded a response to each item?  

I was so excited to get the kit and had such high expectations regarding the experience.  Like many i started a blog of the build, bought a new GoPro to film.  For a time I thought it was me expecting a better level of quality, but its become apparent from this thread that everyone contributing agrees.  Someone earlier commented that they had to be sent 3 radiators before they got one that didn't leak.... speechless.  

I also got more insight into the CC's attitudes during the delivery issue.  I asked said director to spend some additional time to verify the components in the kit, to help ensure that more deliveries to the IOM weren't required, resolving shortages.  This seemed to me to be a sensible precaution given the apparent issue.  He went on stating he couldn't do that as they weren't able to check, he then went onto explain how CC didnt use modern systems like bar codes etc.  His attitude was almost celebratory in the fact not only is the car from the 50s so is the business.  He was impressed that they had inherent operational inefficiencies. I just drew a conclusion, now I at least know why it costs 40k, management think its clever to be inefficient.  Sorry this is turning it a proper CC bashing, but its a genuine insight, and as I say, I'm just exhausted trying to get the thing finished.

 

[Wrightpayne]

Truly horrible experience all round! I agree with John and Scott.

1) Complain at the highest level. If no satisfactory solution forthcoming go to 2.

2) Fit a rad and cooler that is known to fit and work. Sell old rad to make as cost neutral as possible.

Try and see the build through - the first drive may change your mind. If not sell it as a built / registered car - spring is a good time to sell so plenty of time to finish and ponder next steps.

Stick with it, you’ve done really well to get this far.

Ian

[tomwood]

Jeez, just caught up on the latest. Really feel for you, I'd be similarly cheesed off if I was in your shoes.

I totally agree with your point on inefficiencies as well. You'd think after all this time making essentially the same vehicles that they would get their packing lists and ability to select the correct parts against those packing lists down to a fine art form. Alas it seems they are still sending out the wrong bits in kits. What I really can't understand is how they think this is cost efficient. You'd think it would be one of the key areas they would focus on as it must damage margins ultimately. Odd.

When I built mine 5 years ago I must have had 3 or 4 deliveries of additional bits to sort out missing items along the way. The amount of bits I had left over was also quite staggering. I agree with you, it's no wonder the cars cost so much!

I do echo what others have said though, particularly if you are 75% of the way through the build. You need to get it done so you don't loose out financially.

Derek is there to get things sorted for those that are building kits, I doubt he knows any of what has happened to you previously with regards to the delivery issues so I wouldn't worry about talking to him directly, he may even sympathise with your position. It strikes me that there is a good chance his brief response is simply down to being busy, perhaps ask if you can call him to talk it through with him. Whenever I spoke with him directly he was always helpful.

Tom

[Jim 123]

Duplicate sorry

[Jim 123]

I think you underestimate that you have made really fantastic progress, particularly given the absence of local owners who can pop round to your garage and give support, share ideas, or simply listen to you cursing when things don't go as you expected. Why not put a cover over the car until after Christmas, and I'd hope that the current issues will be seen as quickly fixable baby steps when you come back. 

If you read the blogs, many builders look at the CC standard practices (which to be fair are usually more than fit for purpose, if sometimes not always elegant) but then elect to do certain things their preferred way, even though it takes more planning and time.  I certainly did so on a number of fronts, and was supported along the way by Derek who has built a good few cars in his time.

 

[CtrMint]

Maybe, although I did want to start it and move it before then, mostly so I can create sufficient space to start my Lotus, I don't like the idea of leaving the car for more than 2 months.

One thing for sure is this forum is the most friendly and helpful I've been a member of, so thanks all for such a welcome and your assistance, especially as I'm ranting a wee bit here.

[Jim 123]

I think the Exige must be feeling neglected. Depending on how much space you need to get it out, and from your photos, could you fit the front wheels and use your engine crane front then rear to do a sideways shuffle? 

[7 wonders of the world]

'Ce normal' level of service for CC sadly.....

They wouldn't even speak to me regarding the purchase of my first kit......... thankfully I made contact with Jon @ Millwood  

You've invested  lot and the rewards and smile this car will etch on your face once complete around the IOM will offset the chumps your currently having to deal with.

Would be nice if CC sorted this out in a swift and professional way though, its only swapping parts, but if not rad and coolers can easily be sourced (alicool for rads and Think for coolers hoses etc) put yours on fleabay and they will soon find a new home.

[CtrMint]

CC responded this morning to my additional questions, stating the following.

"If you look at the photo attached we trim the bobbin down so the hose will fit."

This is in reference to the hose fitment and bobbin interference. I stated in my original communication to CC I didn't find that acceptable, I had to push for a better response, only to get that exact response in the end!  The volume of hacking/rubber removal required for this to fit is totally unreasonable and I feel unacceptable.

see #38 for an image of my bobbin, just exactly how much needs removal!

The other topics regarding the nose cone etc remain unanswered.

I've replied stating I don't find the solution acceptable, but haven't yet requested the alternative radiator configuration.  I'm still undecided as to whether to walk away.  

One side comment many of you have suggested funding the alternative configuration myself, and then selling the radiator.  I don't feel confident with this as I've cut down the integrated bolts as per CC instructions which I guess limits the use of the radiator to that which uses the bobbins etc, i.e. this application.  If I'd not cut them down as per the direction I might have been able to find a smaller diameter rubber bush and bolted straight through to the chassis. This might have avoided this ill thought through dogs dinner. sigh 

[TomB]

I'd concur with earlier posts - buy what you need from Radtec/ Alicool/ Think Automotive, sell the 'race radiator' on eBay, here or the Facebook group.  You'll have a solution in hand very quickly, depending on their stock probably within a week.  Replacement bobbins & bolts are cheap as chips and readily available.

I think to be honest your wasting your time and will only get more and more fed up.  Accept that at times Caterham are crap, you're certainly not the first and undoubted wont be the last.  But take comfort that the club, Blatchat and a few indys are great - Jon Vickers, Redline, PGM, Oakmere, Seven Workshop, TSK & Arch - you wont need to deal with CC again.  

I think sometimes we can forget where CC have come from - regardless of the image they want to portray, they are still the upper level of the kit car market and some fettling or after market 'engineering' is sometimes needed.  Its certainly its not ideal, and not what should happen on a premium product at £40k, but if a customer is expecting Porsche quality and fit, expectations may need managing.  They've moved upmarket, but all aspects of the product or organization haven't kept up.

 

[John Vine]

TomB's comments about Indys and BC are valid, as are the pointers to non-CC sources of rads, coolers and oil hoses. 

What is being proposed is that you adopt the proven set-up on the R400D (and possibly earlier 420s).  The only difference is that you won't need to obtain the bits from CC.  And all the knowledge, advice and guidance you'll need (for what boils down to a straightforward mod, after all) resides here on BC.

As for selling your race rad with cut mounting bolts, I wouldn't worry.  All the purchaser needs to do is to convert the bolt hole into an open-ended slot in order to get the bolt out.  That is child's play to someone who knows enough to remove and replace a rad and its associated hoses.

One word of caution, however.  Before you embark on this route, it would be a good idea to bounce it off Oakmere as you do not want to risk invalidating your warranty.

JV 

[CtrMint]

A quick update.

I requested Derek escalate the situation and seek a more appropriate solution.  He has confirmed he has raised the matter with their Head of Engineering.  I therefore need to wait for a response.

I've also taken a look at the bobbin to see if there was a quick and simple solution.  I believe I have an M8 30x15 bobbin, but need something along the lines of M8 20x15 or M8 25x15.  I've yet to find a bobbin in that configuration supporting an M8 bolt size.  Suppliers checked include;

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/1360-male-female-vibration-mount-spacers  and https://www.avmountsonline.co.uk/bobbin-mounts/male-female-bobbin-mounts

Both offer low volume / proto-typing custom services, which I've yet to check, a custom bobbin might be a better solution.  Alternatively I could get a local engineering shop make a solid item.  I appreciate these are for anti-vibration, but I do think it's better than butchering a rubber one, I'd of course only replace the single.

Derek also stated the radiator "should" fit within the nose cone, he wasn't exactly convincing in his response. I'll therefore assume that is good and wait to see what happens with their response before properly considering changing the parts.  Of course as JV points out, warranty would be a potential issue.

in such scenarios I need to accept the terrible catch tank design and cable tie the held out of the hose so it doesn't rub on the nose cone receiver.

I'll follow up once I have a response from CC engineering.

 

[TomB]

Would buying a single straight piece of silicone hose from one of the many motorsport suppliers (eg Merlin, Demon Tweeks) help? It wont do the funny dog leg around the catch tank then.    

[John Vine]

Would a single straight hose handle the 90-deg bend, and fit under/round the plenum?  The standard item is a shaped EDPM jobbie:

This was introduced some years ago to replace the ali water rail, whose brackets had a tendency to fracture -- witness my own case (adjacent to the belt tensioner):

Maybe a suitably trimmed S-hose would do the job (such as the example in post #7)?

JV

 

[Jim 123]

Siliconhoses.com in Gloucester will make a hose to your design and are very capable.  Re the bobbin, why not get your M8 30 x 15 turned down to your desired size in a lathe.  I'm pretty sure lots of people on here would have the kit to do that for you.

[TomB]

Send silicone hoses.com your OEM one and show how you need it modifying. Make it longer so you can trim to length. 

[CtrMint]

Think we are getting close to putting this to bed now.

A chap called Simon Lambert contacted me today via email to discuss my feedback regarding the new design, while the chap was very open and approachable, the communication ultimately did not provide a resolution.  I have to say, Caterham at least admitted the designed was flawed.

I'll add the communication at the bottom of this post, as I'm sure there are some contributors interested in the background.

Where am I going to going with this then?

Simon Lambert has clearly stated the new design is an improvement over the old, so I'll stick with the design and cut the bobbin down, although I've requested a spare.  I will also look at sourcing a bespoke item from one of the suppliers I posted earlier.  If that is too expensive then I'll make do. I don't really have tools for this, so my plan is to mount the bobbin in a drill, rotate at a slow speed and use a fine file or possibly dremel to remove the excess.  I want to keep the shape as best as possible.

In terms of the hose and catch can, I'm looking at purchasing the following hose from Demon Tweeks.

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/eu/samco-xtraflex-air-water-straight-silicone-hose-standard-colours-247873/

I hope to cut the existing hose down and use the flexibility of this hose to join across to the radiator, avoiding the catch can.  I appreciate the hose is relatively expensive, but I think it will give the greatest flexibility when routing it round the catch can.  I shouldn't need to worry about precise angles etc.

Am I happy? Not really,  I guess I just need to accept the feedback many of you have provided. 

Thanks again for all the support!

-----------------------------------------

Comms. Email 1

"Dear Mark,

As requested, Derek has escalated this matter to me for resolution.

Firstly, I have to say that I agree with you in that the current solution is unsatisfactory. 

Earlier this year we adopted the Seven 420R race car radiator and oil cooler for the 420R road car, replacing the original standard radiator plus traditional front-mounted oil cooler.  This was done for product-improvement; the race part offering superior performance.  This part was originally designed to be rigidly mounted to the front of the chassis, which was the norm in racing for many years, but more recently, we have used a shallow-width bobbin to minimise the risk of vibration induced damage whist still having sufficient space for the front mounted fan.

The addition of the bobbins came at the request of some of the race teams, for whom the compromise on the interference was accepted as it was a later addition not originally envisaged in the component design.  Therefore, it was overlooked when we switched from the old design to the new for road, but has obviously been flagged-up since.  Another factor at play is variation in the radiators, which means some require minimal modification, others a little more [we have recently invested in our quality dept, bolstering headcount, so that we can improve component quality issues like this].

Whilst I have explained the background, I have not so far offered a better solution and as we are now, I am unable to.  The modified (and I use the term loosely) bobbin, whilst unsightly, is reliable, proven, and the method used in production.  It is, however, hidden away once the car is complete, so has been deemed acceptable until a better solution can be engineered.  Therefore, whilst it is with the engineering team to improve, it is having to wait its turn in a queue of engineering pressures which have been dominated by the likes of WLTP this year.

I am sorry that I am unable to satisfy your reasonable request for something less jarring, but perhaps we could send you a factory-modified bobbin which may be an improvement?  The alternative would be to revert to the old cooling system, but this would be an appreciable backwards step for the car (and the components may not be immediately available)

I hope this information has been of interest to you and please contact Derek to arrange for a modified bobbin if you would like one.  In the meantime, please enjoy the rest of the build.

Regards

Simon"

Reply 1

"
Hello Simon, 
Thank you for the timely response.
The background information was interesting although as per your own admission not particularly beneficial with respect to a solution.
I understand Caterham is a small company offering a kit car, however you have reached a price point where I feel certain expectations are not unreasonable, which includes ensuring appropriate revisions are carefully managed and executed. 
This statement is particularly true with respect to the affects of the radiator change.  Procuring a correctly sized bobbin in low volumes from a parts supplier would offer a quick and simple interim and potentially permanent solution to the problem.  I do not believe such an approach would place unacceptable demands on your engineering or procurement personnel and from my own research would be pretty cheap to implement.
Doing so would also avoid any negative view of product quality which may occur as result of  having to modify such a bobbin as a work around.  I don’t subscribe to the mantra of because I can’t see it, it doesn’t matter.  
Caterham’s acceptance of such a solution also generates significant concerns over quality and the potential for other shortcuts which maybe less visible.
There are other aspects to the change which I feel should be reviewed such as the shape of the top hose and the obstruction of the catch tank.  I suspect these will also fall under a similar response.
I am not particularly eager to swap the radiator for the previous design as I have no desire to go back through the process of refitting the oil hoses.  One of the oil hoses was again clearly designed for fitment with the old design and had to be forced to fit.  
In terms of moving forward I would be more appreciative if you would consider supplying an appropriate bobbin, I’ve attached a couple of suppliers which might be of interest, both are able to facilitate low volume proto-typing production levels.
https://www.accu.co.uk/en/1360-male-female-vibration-mount-spacers
https://www.avmountsonline.co.uk/bobbin-mounts/male-female-bobbin-mounts

I look forward to reading your response. 
Best regards,
Mark"

Email 2

"Evening Mark,

I appreciate your feedback and understand your position.  Your comment regarding the price point and quality level we need to achieve is very reasonable and we are striving to improve.  However, as you say yourself, Caterham is a small company with extremely limited resources and it is easy to underestimate the challenges we face.  Whilst your request for a more appropriate sized bobbin seems perfectly sensible, I do not have capacity to ensure sufficient mileage to validate a new bobbin quickly and without such cannot expose ourselves to the potential warranty implications.  Obviously you are free to source there yourself, but I hope you can understand our position on warranty.

I have a Seven 420R which I built myself and I know there are many areas where parts can be improved; it is a constant frustration to us that we do not have the resource to tackle all of these things quickly.  However, I have no concerns over the performance of these parts in the most extreme of circumstances and the 420R race car is widely respected for its durability, which is reflected in the robustness of the road product.  Our focus is on ensuring that the car delivers an unparalleled driving experience and in this arena, I am confident that you will not be disappointed.

Regards

Simon"

Reply 2 

"Simon,
Thank you for your time with this matter.
I am still disappointed by the response but have to accept the position.  That said, it does make me smile that you are not prepared to warranty a new bobbin which is basically a revised size, yet will be happy to warranty a bobbin I’ve butchered too fit.  Let’s both hope my skills to modify are up to the task.
If you could supply a spare just in case I make a mess I’d appreciate it.
Thank you
Mark"