Catch Can Questions

[ScottR400D]

I wonder if you’ll need the new 420R race nose, which I understand is bigger to fit the big race rad!

it has two openings and seems to be made for when the oil cooler is below the radiator. 

But maybe that’s what you’ve got?

[tomwood]

Hi Jim,

you’re right, does look a bit low doesn’t it. Will add it to my winter servicing to do list :)

thanks,

Tom

[CtrMint]

Difficult to describe where it's catching.  You can see where the radiator scuffed the inside of the fibre glass.

I see further posts have suggested I may need a different nose cone, if so I will at that point call it a day and request a full refund.  I paid 1K for a custom paint finish and while I've not checked the paint for how well body and nose match I hope CC's paint process at least took it into consideration.  

Any tips on fitting, help avoid getting it unduly tangled?

[CtrMint]

Just been and had ago at fitting and I would say it doesn't fit.  I can get the near side on but no hope of the offside, both are clearly butted against the radiator.

I've tried to take photos but for obvious reasons its not easy.

Does anyone know where there is explicit documentation that would clarify a race nose cone is needed for the race radiator?

 

 

[Jim 123]

If you haven't done this before it is a bit fiddly. In your photo do you have the bottom 2 fasteners aligned and done up? 

[tomwood]

Which of these nosecones is the same shape as yours?

a) standard nosecone

b) 620r nosecone

[aerobod - near CYYC]

I would say the best solution at this point is for Caterham to swap your radiator / oil cooler for the non-race R400 road unit and separate oil cooler that the rest of us seem to have. They do seem to have them in stock. In my build, I still get slight nose cone contact, but it is with the dry sump oil tank cap when the engine vibrations cause some nose cone wobble, a piece of rubber tape on the underside of the nose cone fixed any issue there.

On the other hand, they could also fix it by giving you the 620R carbon nose cone (I would also expect free carbon rear wings to match, assuming you already have carbon front ones).

[CtrMint]

I've got the first one.

[John Vine]

I think James has identified the most practical solution (#57), short of rejecting the entire car.  IMHO, the non-race items would be the way to go (proven design, everything fits, everything works), although you might need different cooler hoses.  I have no knowledge of the double aperture 620-style nosecone, or what its internal dimensions might be, but if it were my car and I was prepared to keep the race rad, I'd also want a redesigned top hose and properly oriented cooler hoses. 

(On second thoughts, I wouldn't want the race rad at all, given the utter botch of the mounts and hose alignment.)

JV 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

The other thing I would make sure of is having the correct fan and ducting for the radiator. With the race setup, I would want the nosecone with the lower cutout for air to hit the oil cooler, with the road setup when the oil cooler is infront of the radiator, you also need the lower duct at the bottom of the fan to ensure air is pulled through the oil cooler effectively when the car is stationary.This is what it looks like:

[7 wonders of the world]

620r nose is taller to allow for the intercooler intake so a the point yours is touching there will be additional clearance.

 

[John Vine]

Does anyone know where there is explicit documentation that would clarify a race nose cone is needed for the race radiator?

I'm not aware of any such doc, explicit or otherwise.  As you've already discovered, the latest IKEA-style Assembly Guide doesn't mention Duratecs at all, and the earlier February-2015c edition doesn't mention the race rad or the double-aperture nosecone, so the likelihood of finding a separate 420-race reference is vanishingly small.  I would suggest you contact CC and ask if such a doc exists.  When they say no, you'll have yet one more bullet point in your complaint (or notice of rejection) to G MacDonald. 

What a mess!  I really don't understand how CC can imagine they're on top of this.  I'm reluctant to say it, but maybe there's a hidden agenda to discourage kits?

JV

 

[ScottR400D]

The 420R race nose is like the 620 but without the top vent. The standard one won’t fit that rad/cooler, I’m sure. Not properly in any case.  

I don’t think there’s any doubt, as has been suggested a coupe of times; get the normal rad and separate oil cooler with the right oil pipes (which you might have in any case) and you’ll find it a different kettle of fish. 

On the face of what we’ve seen, CC are really letting you down.

[tomwood]

I agree with Scott and it was essentially where my questioning was leading.

they appear to have given you the wrong radiator to be used with the nosecone that you have. It’s quite clear from the design of your radiator that it needs a nosecone that has an additional duct at the bottom.

Either you need the correct nosecone to work with that radiator or they need to give you the correct and separated radiator/ oil cooler combo such as the one I showed in my earlier pics.

i’m pretty sure as Scott has said that your existing dry sump oil lines would fit very nicely onto the seperate oil cooler.

It’s as if they’ve got confused on the spec they are supplying you and have given you a race radiator with a non race nosecone.

You certainly wouldn’t be the first to receive the wrong parts for a kit so it could be they’ve made a genuine mistake. I certainly had some bits missing or wrong that I needed to get sorted.

Derek, to give him his dues, was always very helpful when I spoke with him but the trick is to speak with him over the phone and talk him through it all so he can understand where the problems lie.

Tom

 

[CtrMint]

I will be writing to Derek again today on the matter, although I do feel a complete idiot due to the previous conversations we've had on the topic, although that doesn't change the experience I am having. 

For example, one of Derek's previous responses on the matter is as follows;

"For the 420 R that is the correct rad/oil cooler I have attached a photo from your kit of what brackets you are looking for"

I intend to cover the following areas;

• Poor fitting of radiator top hose, specifically insufficient reception of hose to provide ample clamping surface of jubilee.
• Inadequate clearance of and interference with catch tank.
• Interference with rear left hand side nose cone receiver.
• Inability to mount nose cone due to interference with radiator. 

 I'll update the thread once I have a response.

[CtrMint]

I've had a look at the parts website now, I can see what you mean about the existence of a 420R race nose cone.

 

[7 wonders of the world]

The extra lower air intake is fine on track however it will offer little improvement over a correctly mounted oil cooler in front of the rad if you fit a full size number plate !

And unless the oil cooler has a built in stat in the return line (which I doubt) it will be over cooling the oil for a significant percentage of the time on road

[CtrMint]

The car will spend most of the time on the road, so I guess that's not great then.  I also see what you mean about a number plate holder.

At this point in time it certainly would be nice to speak to a fellow builder attempting a 420 S3 car.

 

[ScottR400D]

No reply from CC yet?

Very good point from 7 wonders. 

With the standard rad and cooler the water and oil are fine on track and road. I certainly wouldn’t want any more cooling of either. 

[CtrMint]

Nope no response yet, I emailed Derek today at 1pm.  

[John Vine]

I reckon it's questionable whether a road-going R400D or 420 needs an oil cooler at all. Mine remains 100% blanked off, and oil temperature rarely reaches 90C (with coolant at 80-ish).

I've always understood that Duratecs like to run oil at 85C+, something that the regular oil cooler inhibits.

JV

[ScottR400D]

Where do you measure the oil temp John? Mine is measured ar the bottom of the tank, so just before going back in to the engine and after cooling. It runs at 65c or so on the road, 80c on track which I would equate to 85/100c before cooling. 

Anyway, the point remains; the ‘standard’ stuff is more than adequate. It’s really puzzling why they’ve sent out this race stuff in road cars. 

[CtrMint]

I've an initial response from CC, although it's too brief to be of any help and so I've had to explicitly request Derek comment on the topics raised, so far I've only received photos.  I did ask for photos however I was also hopeful Derek would also take the time to provide some written support on how to overcome the problems.  

One aspect has been clarified from the pictures supplied, the position of the catch tank and top hose.  It would seem CC feel the placement of the catch tank under the top hose is acceptable despite the consensus present on this forum at least that it's a pretty poor configuration.  I'm therefore not expecting to find a different outcome on this, the original topic of the forum post.  Very disappointing.

 

In a later image supplied you can also see the proximity to the nose cone catch.  I'm not sure if the progress of this car means the builder hasn't addressed this.  I hope CC will provide more information going forward.

Concerns over the top hose fitment onto the radiator remain.  Derek provided images from the above car showing better fitment than I can achieve, but no advice on what is wrong with my build or what I should do.

 

No response or input on the nose fitment was provided either.  I've replied to the email requesting comments on the ares of interest.

 

 

[ScottR400D]

I think that’s awful. 

I’d be on to McDonald demanding the road rad and cooler and the oil pipes, if they’re not what you’ve already got.

I’d also be asking why they’ve changed a proven system, the version you’ve got has not a single advantage.  

 

[tomwood]

OK, so that does answer a few questions then but others remain unresolved and you'll need some answers

Resolved Q's:

1) The photos prove it's possible to get a much better fit with the top radiator hose than you've got so far. The issue you currently have is that your Bobbins appear to be of the non waisted kind whereas in all the Caterham pics, they are clearly using waisted ones which are narrower in the middle than at the ends to give better clearance. If you haven't got any in your kit then ask Derek to supply some and I'm sure he'd be happy to send some. In addition it looks like you will need to cut a bit off one of them to get the hose to butt up against the radiator properly. I suspect the Jubilee clip can stay positioned where it is and it will be fine, you just need the hose to push on further.

2) Whilst the routing of the top hose right over the catch tank is undoubtedly a poorly engineered solution, in reality it will work just fine. The probability of you ever needing to empty the catch tank is pretty low. Your biggest risk is overfilling the sump tank with oil when you do an oil change. I've not had any spat into mine through general running on road and hard running on track though. With the hose attached to the radiator, is it flexible enough to be pushed out of the way so you can access, and lift (remove) the catch tank if needed?

Unresolved Q's:

1) Is the nosecone that you currently have definitely going to fit over the race radiator? We know there is a 420R 'upgraded' nosecone that can be purchased for your car but this does appear to be an upgrade over a normal nose. If the upgraded nosecone is necessary to fit over the race type radiator then they need to either:

a) Supply you with the right nosecone

b) Send you the other type of radiator and separate oil cooler so you can work with your current nosecone

2) How best to get the Dry sump oil lines to correctly fit onto the re-positioned oil cooler connection points? The hose kit they have supplied is almost certainly orientated correctly for the other style of oil cooler with vertical connections underneath the oil cooler (same as mine). Some advice has been given that suggests the existing lines can be reconfigured and the connections rotated, perhaps Derek can advise if this is the expectation?

I would also re-iterate what I said in an earlier post. Derek is likely to better respond to your inquiries if you speak with him over the phone. i suspect a 5 min call will have most of your outstanding Q's addressed and will avoid you having to play email tennis with him.

Tom