Northern Banana Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 That time of year again and popped down to the garage to turnover the 7 (2 weeks since last start) and not enough juice in battery. Its a Banner battery and has been plugged into the conditioner, but I suspect the self arming immobiliser is too much. What are the options: i) new battery should I just replace with another Banner - heard that gel types get on even less with immobilisers. ii) to keep the new battery healthy with the immobiliser on. Is it just a matter of running the car every few days to top it up? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Conditioners work best when they are hooked up to an already fully-charged battery (after a good blat, for example). Because their charge rate is relatively low (maybe only 1A or so) they will struggle to bring a discharged battery up to scratch quickly, but they should cope with the immobilser drain. How long did you run the engine after you last started it? It can take a while to recover from the demands of starting. Of course, maybe the battery is getting old, in which case you'll need to test it with a meter. IME, Banners are well up to the job, provided they are kept charged and the electrolyte levels are checked regularly. JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadsport06 Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Your conditioner should be more than up to the job so it is either a problem with the battery or the conditioner isn't working. You don't mention the make of the conditioner, but if it is a trickle charger not conditioner then you could have evaporated the water in the cells. Check the level of the water in the cells, it should cover the plates. Check the conditioner is working using a multimeter and also check the current drain with the immobiliser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted November 11, 2012 Member Share Posted November 11, 2012 As above. What's the model of the charger? Get the battery charged somehow, stick it on the charger, then check what's happening every day by briefly disconnecting the charger and measuring the voltage. Then reconnect to the charger until the next test. Jonathan Edited by - Jonathan Kay on 11 Nov 2012 18:51:08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian B Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Fit a battery isolater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazerBrain Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I'm not sure what engine/ECU you have, but I had a fault with my EU2 MEMS which discharged the battery. The cure was a repair of the ECU. It's definitely worth checking how much current is being drawn when the immobiliser is on and everything else is off. The immobiliser is around 30mA from memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 A decent conditioner like a ctek XS3600 or 7000 will be more than man enough for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Slotter Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 To give you a few numbers, after a recent accidental discharge I monitored the voltage of my Banner (which is 3 and a bit years old AFAIK) and it was dropping 0.1v a day due to the immobiliser. One thing that occurs on my car (a Duratec) is that the alternator only ever gets my battery to about 12.7v whereas a battery conditioner will get it up to 13.5v. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinH Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Had exactly the same situation today. 2009 Duratec with Banner. I leave it on a C-tek conditioner but after about 4 weeks of no use, it wouldn't start and the battery gave up after about 3 attempts. went for a good 1.5 hour blat and it starts again now without any trouble. I have a feeling I left the car a couple of days after the last blat before putting the conditioner on. Is that my issue? At the moment I don't have much faith in the Banner as it has done this many times and definitely won't start after even just one week without being on the conditioner. Cheers Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ford Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Quoting John Vine: Of course, maybe the battery is getting old, in which case you'll need to test it with a meter. How do you do that then? What can you test to see if a battery is in good condition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumble Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Just replaced the banner with... a banner. It was from 2007, so has done fairly well considering. I've always had to give the car a little throttle to start it, but now, it just starts straight away So I'm thinking that this, along with all the other little gremlins on the forum which seem to sort themselves out with a few more volts, was a few well spent £. It's now on the CTEK in the garage, on 'frosty flake' setting, and will hopefully outdo it's predecessor. Replaced the day before Sossiges (London to Brighton), so had a harsh first 24 hours! Matt [edited well earned £ to be well spent £] Edited by - Bumble on 11 Nov 2012 21:34:00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Banana Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Thanks for all the replies. Car has been fine until this attempt, started every time without the need for any throttle - and it has a isolator switch which I assume leaves some current to the ecu & immobiliser The conditioner is a Banner Accugard 1800 - it indicates a full battery with a green LED and the Stack shows 13.1v, but the battery appears to have lost its mojo (technical term). The r500 k does run with a high compression ratio. I've seen it before on a previous 7, where a battery shows ok volts but not enough umph (another technical term) to crank but that wasn't left on a conditioner. Just wondered if an alternative brand/type of battery is now suggested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Quoting Roger Ford: Quoting John Vine: Of course, maybe the battery is getting old, in which case you'll need to test it with a meter. How do you do that then? What can you test to see if a battery is in good condition?Well, you could try something along the lines of JK's post above (frequent voltage checks over time). Also, you could test voltage drop during cranking. These ought to give some indication of battery health. The best way, of course, is to get a load test done at an auto shop. JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted November 12, 2012 Member Share Posted November 12, 2012 More advice on testing Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Banana Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 Back in the garage today to try and get the car running...but yet again I am a failure at nursing the pride and joy!! I need a bit of help please explaining the wiring setup. The big thick red wire coming off the positive side of the battery. On my car it goes through into the bulkhead under the dash. Sorry for what is probably a numpty question but I assume it doesn't just go straight back to the starter solenoid but is split somewhere into a starter relay? I'm trying to prove this cable - as when I have a meter on the starter terminal and try to start the car I only get 7.5v . Battery is new, fully charged conditioned and reads 12.7v. 7.5v at the starter seems low to me - so I'm thinking there is an issue with the supply from battery to starter. Is there a relay under the dash somewhere? Solenoid engages ok and car does a couple of weak cranks then nothing. Any ideas Edit just to check could I run a live feed directly from the battery + to the solenoid terminal? Edited by - Paul Aram on 6 Jan 2013 14:09:01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative paul richards Posted January 6, 2013 Area Representative Share Posted January 6, 2013 Paul Normally goes direct to the starter, unless you have a master switch? Do you have one? If you have a master switch it will normally go to that first and then the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian B Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Sorry just a quick reply before popping out. Do you have an FIA isolator switch? If so the red wire is probably going to that. THey have a bit of a reputation of going high resistance, causing a voltage drop, so that could be your problem. If you can get to it, pull it out and short the main two connections on the rear. If it starts OK then, that's your problem. If you don't need an FIA switch for sprints/competition, then I'd change it for a simple on/off non-FIA one, that can then isolate everything, includign the immobiliser, and prevent drain in the future HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted January 6, 2013 Member Share Posted January 6, 2013 What Ian says. That 7.5V on the starter terminal was while cranking? Suggest you check the voltage across the battery while cranking under the same conditions. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Banana Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 Paul Ian Jonathan - Thanks yes his has a master switch (sorry that was serious Sunday afternoon numptyness). Will try that - any thoughts on the voltage you should see at the starter? Edited by - Paul Aram on 6 Jan 2013 16:14:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pooh_R Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 I would expect to see more than 9 volts at the starter. You could measure the volt drop across the master switch while cranking to confirm this is the suggested problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbird Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Car has been fine until this attempt, started every time without the need for any throttle - and it has a isolator switch which I assume leaves some current to the ecu & immobiliser Paul No, if isolator switch is wired correctly it should disconnect everything, My car can sit for weeks, even months with the FIA switch removed and battery is fine Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Quoting Ian B: If you don't need an FIA switch for sprints/competition, then I'd change it for a simple on/off non-FIA one, that can then isolate everything, includign the immobiliser, and prevent drain in the futureA thought: Does this "simple" switch need a resistor so that it can handle (dump) alternator output correctly should the switch be turned to off while the engine is running? JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian B Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Quoting John Vine: Quoting Ian B: If you don't need an FIA switch for sprints/competition, then I'd change it for a simple on/off non-FIA one, that can then isolate everything, includign the immobiliser, and prevent drain in the futureA thought: Does this "simple" switch need a resistor so that it can handle (dump) alternator output correctly should the switch be turned to off while the engine is running? JV Yes. If you want to stop the engine running with the master switch then you should get an FIA one. The 'simple' switch is a battery isolator, and should only be used when the engine has already been turned off 'normally'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Banana Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Paul No, if isolator switch is wired correctly it should disconnect everything, My car can sit for weeks, even months with the FIA switch removed and battery is fine Tim Hi Tim, Immobiliser is wired to stay on when master switch is off. Its an after market Toad proximity type. looking at the wiring it appears that the feed is directly from the + terminal of the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Banana Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Wet afternoon here (well most are but particularly heavy today). So I tackled the FIA master switch grouping all the feeds onto one terminal. Turned over a few more times but still too slow/weak to let the engine catch. So I grab a freshly charged leisure battery which we use for the horses electric fences. Put across the jump leads and the car starts (I had tried this before but maybe not enough juice in the leisure battery) So I am I to deduce from this that the Banner is a seasonal battery not upto to winter starting? Please help explaining my battery options? The banner is rated at 30amh I had a gel type Power Vamp on the last car but that is only rated at 18amh Is it the starting current that is more relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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