AMMO Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Although I'm in the process of building a 2 litre for myself there is no doubt in my mind that the 2.3 will jump out of corners better as long as you have traction. I've done a lot of work in the past over-boring and stroking engines. The stroker engines always out-accelerate the smaller capacity shorter stroke lumps. Raceline are doing mainly 2.3 engines at the moment because they were so impressed with the Mnister engine they came up against in a CCC shootout. Althoough the 2 litre was faster over all, Peter at Raceline said that it was mainly due to better suspension and tyres. £300.00 for an extra 15% capacity is very good value. Have you ever followed a BMW M3 at a racetrack? They have strokey engines and come out of corners really well considering their weight. You would have a much better chance of out-dragging a Beemer or a Porker with the 2.3 in my opinion if that's what you doing 😬 The 2 litre will rev higher, the 2.3 will be lower revving but have more stomp. Difficult decision. Depends what you want. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I bet that's just made the decision even harder. Still, a nice decision to have to take though. And can I repeat my request, Mike, please don't take me out in the car when it's complete 2L or 2.3L. Either engine will be mind-blowing and I don't want the temptation. 😬 😬 😬 Brent Watching the sender of a threatening e-mail sent anonymously by a coward whose identity has now been revealed. Zetec 209 Reassuringly Expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I don't have a duratec in my 7 - as I've imported two 2.3 engines here however, I have mentally been through the thinking process of what I would put in my car if I ever could. I am not in a capacity to comment on the engines though I have seen one of the engines imported being dismantled and am very impressed with what I saw. I'd have valid arguments for both the 2litre and 2.3 but maybe my driver's reasoning is not the reasoning of engine tuners and other people. For a trackday and hillclimb car I would drop in a two litre, for pure road fun and straight line fun I would drop in the 2.3.. As a person who was built cars for others to show off their knowledge in tuning I have always had to adjust to what was offered to me, whether it was the better thing for me to drive I will always have my doubts. I've always adapted to the car and not had a car adapted to me IYSWIM... Because of this I would go for a 2.3 and take up a challenge. I have been reading through your comments - it would be interesting to see what you guys think about in around a years time, or when upgradeitis hits. I am curious already... Antonella 1998 Caterham Classic my site here more photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbell Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I think upgraditius has just set in.......and I haven`t even got the 2.0 in the car yet Have engine, diff, tacho, clutch and a sexy ultra lightweight flywheel.......need car I`ve seen the future.....and it`s powered by duratec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ELV15 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I mentioned this before, I'm running the 2.0, with the mindset that if I need an upgrade in a year...(OMG, the 2.0 is such a beast, it's going to take me a while to get jaded)...anyway, if I need an upgrade it is easy to just get a 2.3 short block and drop it in. This also has the added advantage of building the 2.3 motor at my lesiure. ELV15 - Tom in California - 200hp duratec powered 2003 Clubsport Build pics and webcam here: here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted March 17, 2004 Author Share Posted March 17, 2004 right the decision needs to be made soon as I've just paid my deposit to CC for the R400, due to go into build on 11th June I think I'm swaying towards the 2.3l route on the basis of Ammo's recommendations, but then again....oh FFS I can't make my mind up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Last time i looked a 2.0 Mazda Duratec was $600 and a 2.3 $800 for a brand new OEM Long block.. Not a lot of $$ by any stretch of the imagination.. 2.3 block is I believe 14mm taller. Did notice that Fraser Cars has a Mondeo (Mazda?) 2.5 l V6 installed in one of their cars.. Frasers are 'uprated' Clones of a Series 3 Lotus 7.. Darn thing seems to fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_H Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I have ordered an R500, less engine, gearbox, exhaust and ecu, which will hopefully be delivered at the end of June - nice and easy! I am now at the stage of deciding which b****y engine to go for??? My requirements are as follows: I would like a car that is quicker than an r500, easier and cheaper to maintain, and an engine that is less stressed (than the equivalent k series), which hopefully means that it is less likely to go bang! Power - how much is enough? The car will predominantly be used as a track car (80 - 90% of the time) - so what is the optimal amount of power to go for? Obviously there is only so much power you can use in a car that weighs 500kg (with the levels of down force it has) - my conclusion today, is 250bhp. SVA - The car will be SVA’d, so this will also have an effect on the engine – the smaller the engine and the higher the power the less likely it will pass SVA. Driving characteristics – having driven an r500 I loved the high revving engine. Having a high torque engine that revs to just 7k really does not appeal, and to be honest low down torque really doesn’t matter that much on track! Spoken to 3 different engine builders and they all say different things!!!! 1) 2 litre, 250bhp, 8500 rpm and is not sure about SVA – needs further investigation 2) 2.3 litre, 250bhp, 7400 rpm SVA no problem 3) 2 litre or 2.3 litre, 250bhp, 7250 rpm SVA no problem 2 litres: - Can achieve 250bhp, but getting closer to the realistic limits, less scope for further tuning May or may not have problems passing SVA – Is it possible to just create a different mapping for the SVA – once passed, switch to the real one? 8500 rpm potential – nice! The higher the revs the more wear. 2.3 litres: - Can easily achieve 250bhp, more scope if more power needed. Should pass SVA with out any real problems. Revs 7500 to 8000 More torque, about 200 lb ft – but is it too much? Will I be lighting up the rear wheels too easily The higher the torque the more wear. If I could be sure that the 2 litre, 250bhp, 8500rpm engine would pass SVA, then that is current preferred choice. I just hope I don’t need/want more power in the future! Are there any other factors you think I should consider? Any further thoughts or recommendations? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Mark If you are going to use a stock type 9 gearbox don't go more than 220 bhp. Don't bother with a six speed for a Duratec. It doesn't need it. If you go for a box with stronger internals then 250 bhp is OK. Arch can also do some chassis strengthening in the diff area. Might be worth specifying this. Revs might sound nice but engine longevity suffers. A big stompy 2.3 correctly geared will out-drag most revvy motors. 7,500 rpm has to be the sensible limit for a Duratec. Not really that low. "Spoken to 3 different engine builders and they all say different things!!!!" Yep that's what happens 😬 If you spoke to me I would give you so many options your head would be spinning. But once you have heard all the options you would be able to come up with an engine spec. that would be perfect for you. Being given too many options and being able to decide is better in my opinion. You have made the right choice to go Duratec 😬 AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Piper Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Hi Mark did you sell the RS? I'm sure you've already thought of this, but they are going to deliver the car without the cut out for the exhaust for the R500 exhaust aren't they? It may already have been said on this thread, but Caterham do produce a "Duratec" chassis don't they? I wonder why they have bothered with this given their deal with MG Rover - do we think they may have struck a deal with Ford and/or one of its specialist engine building subsidiaries . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I am also in this decision making process right now, and believe it will be the 2.3 route. High revs only equal more stress/higher wear rates, high torque equals better acceleration, and thats what's fun in a seven. Just got a quote from Raceline, and the prices for 250/260HP 2.0 litre, and 260/270HP 2.3 litre are so close it does'nt matter. What does matter in my opinion is that the 2.3 litre gives a whopping 210 Lb.ft of torque at only 6,000 RPM. Torque/traction control where it should be, under your right foot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 Mark (Piper), No, they build a 'Duratec Chassis' because so many of their customer are requesting in. For example I'm going over to CC dartford at lunchtime to pick up my bonnet (to get the cut out done before it's sprayed) and to see my chassis which was delivered from Arch yesterday along with another Duratec chassis for a well know TVR dealership ❗ and very shortly a Duratec SV chassis for the Raceline demo. Mark_H, If you speak to Peter at Raceline he'll explain the pros and cons of a 220bhp vs 250bhp 2.0l (for example the 250 bhp will need forged piston&rods as well as some reworking of the chain tensioners etc and hasn't been proven yet to pass SVA). One possible route to take (the one I'm taking is to build the car with the 220/230bhp 2.0l and pass SVA, then if in future you want to upgrade you have several options, one of which is to transfer the bit's to a 2.3l engine - ball park figure for this upgrade would be £2K. alternatively you could mod the 220bhp to add forged piston&rods (once a cheaper source has been found), change to 250 cams (and sell the 220 cams) and get a quick port polish, change the ECU map - 250bhp, 8000-8,500rmp red line for another £2K-£3K cost?) BTW if you don't mind me asking what did Caterham charge you for an R500 minus engine, gearbox, exhaust and ECU (if you email me I'll tell you what they charged me for an R400 chassis). cheers, Mike R400 Duratec 230bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I'd be quite interested to know what they charged for each of those too, any chance of dropping an email my way? Thanks C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Piper Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Mike, I reckon there's more to it than that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 Mark, The reason they started providing the Duratec chassis was due to customer demand. What happens in Jan 2005 is of course a different matter, I do know of several activities by several CC suppliers that may indicate what their up to but couldn't possibly comment until I know for sure 😳 R400 Duratec 230bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESOLVIWOLF Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 mark, way i see it your in abit of a dilemma here: 1) 8500 is getting risky IMO.. back to the old R500 problem of 'revs kills engines' 2) you like the reviness of the R500 yet the 2.3 is not very revy at all.... 3) 2 litre is revy and the engine to go for IMO but wont sva at 250bhp 4) there is only 1 engine builder to go for !!! (but then im biased) 😬 I would go for the 2.0 at 230bhp then tune it later. 5 speed as ammo says and either the elite or an spc to handle the power. my guess is that the fact that your car outdoes the R500 is quite important .. .and thats no bad thing. But bear in mind 2 things: 1) an extra 20bhp over an R500 doesn't amount to very much in real world trackday terms 2) you will be faster more easily by getting decent suspension 3) there will ALWAYS be some R500 driver who goes past you at some point or another all in my humble opinion keep us posted with your plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESOLVIWOLF Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 "1) an extra 20bhp over an R500 doesn't amount to very much in real world trackday terms " unless: both cars are both at teh limit of their acceleration, braking, cornering, powering through etc... and at a trackday, given the general standard, there is actually more chance of both cars getting simultaneously struck by lightning 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The fastest 7s I have seen on track days are Blackbirds... if this is just a willy waving contest 😳 why not get one of these 😬 Edited by - charlie_pank on 25 May 2004 13:54:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 I'd second Jackals points above. If you're going to SVA it then go for the 220/230bhp 2.0l........... However if you were to wait 6 months you may find the Raceline 250/260bhp 2.0l has been sufficiently fettled to pass the SVA and prove reliable. Unfortunately as one of us early adopters nothing so simple at the moment. Just went to see my 'Duratec' R400 chassis at Caterham and was pleased to see that all the mods I'd asked for had been included by arch I've also asked them to fit the battery cut off switch next to the fire extinguisher pull handle on the dash and also changed the spec to get the 'minimalist' dash (doesn't include the windscreen wiper, heated screen, heater fan switch cut outs) which I didn't even know existed 😳 R400 Duratec 230bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanT Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 High revs only equal more stress/higher wear rates, high torque equals better acceleration, and thats what's fun in a seven Strange that. My Blackbird has hardly any torque at all but has enough acceleration to blow most other Sevens into the weeds ... (Hint to everyone reading this thread ... don't confuse the value of torque at the flywheel over torque at the driven wheels. Low-capacity-revvy/low-torque engine + matched gearing gives just as much in-gear acceleration as same-power High-capacity/high-torque engine + matched gearing). Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durawest Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I had problems getting through the natural idle and lambda readings of emissions at SVA with my Raceline 226bhp kit, nothing Raceline could do as it was Webers ECU that needed revising. But if you chose a non closed ecu you can 'play at sva' Although it eventually went through I would definetly not recommend putting the 250bhp spec'd 2L Duratec through SVA. You cannot de-tune a 226/250bhp Duratec to pass SVA, as it is the high cam lift that causes fluctuating fuelling problems at low rpm, so I'd say do the 226bhp kit, enjoy it and upgrade later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_H Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Thanks for the responses!! Haven’t replied any earlier as I have been on track day at Silverstone with IanT, who let me drive his Blackbird several times :-D – Thoroughly enjoyed myself, and many thanks to Ian for trusting me ….fool!!!! Oh and you left your number plate in the pit garage, which I picked up! Back to the project - the car will be built by Mic and his son who works at cc, so all the necessary mods have been ordered and specced. Mic is investigating the options with gearbox and I fully agree that 250bhp is too much for type 9 gearbox. 5 speed is the chosen option. Having spoken to more people today (Aaaaaaghhhhh) and together with the replies I am starting to agree with you re the 8500 rpm is too high. It really depends on how the engine is set up that counts, although I am starting to reconsider the 2.3 again. :-# My aim is to get the power I believe I want from the off, rather than constant modifying. Seen a good friend go down the route modifying an EVO bit by bit, he ended up getting everything re done several times and costing a fortune – although a lot of people learnt from his mistakes! More investigation next week – keep you posted on my findings. Definitely agree re the suspension and brakes!!!!! I have ordered the track suspension. ARE THERE BETTER OPTIONS?? ALSO WHAT IS THE BEST BRAKE SETUP? Oh and Jackal, I agree re the engine builder, that is why I am using him!!! :o) Mark P – still got the RS, as I haven’t even advertised it yet :o( Cheers, Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESOLVIWOLF Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 lol .... presaumbly you're talking about tony ? I guess some of that is down to the horrid backbiting world of jap tuners... people leaving bits of metal in your wastegate on purpose etc... but then also Tony is his own worst enemy as im sure he'd agree gearbox, you'd be silly to ignore the elite IMO. Having seen mr. townley's I'm actually slightly miffed now that i didnt hold out for one.. but then i was in a bit of a rush and the BGH will fetch good money over the winter when i will prolly swap for an elite. Semi-helical will be nice as well. Suspension... have you ordered Caterham Race springs (250/215) and the new caterham adjustable shocks ? If you want to talk 'Ohlins' then drop me a line or call me as im on the cusp of ordering a set. Not cheap mind you ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 Jackal, Can you tell me more about the Elite box? What type of box is it? Would it be a straight swap for a BHG (i.e same dimensions) or would it require a new bell housing? How much are they? Reason I ask is whilst I've specced the BHG from Raceline I still have a week or so to change my mind Also I was going to go for the CC adjustable dampers and race spring option but chancelled at the last minute as I thought there may be better after market options - I was thinking specifically of the FreeStyle trackday/race spring/damper/adjustable roll bar package - what's made you go for the ohlins option? cheers, Mike R400 Duratec 230bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted May 26, 2004 Author Share Posted May 26, 2004 Mark, Ref the 2.3l you do know it's a little more difficult to get it under the bonnet (as it's a little taller obviously). Raceline have designed a new low-level cam cover for the 2.0l and 2.3l engines but haven't started to manufacture it yet. Also if you can wait a month or so before you make you engine choice you might want to try Racelines 2.3l 250/260bhp SV demo car which they'll be building in June? cheers, Mike R400 Duratec 230bhp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now