Graham Perry Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Someone should bite your arm off with that offer ! There is bound to be a few windscreens going back on and aeroscreens coming off with winter round the corner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Richard, I think if you could make a aeroscreen for the SV at a decent price you would clean up. Plenty of demand, I'd be first in the queue. waiting, phoning, waiting, phoning, waiting................... Dutratec Se7en's, the only way to travel! Keep it sunny side up and out of the kitty litter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom7 Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I'm afraid I havn't an aeroscreen to offer, but would be interested in buying if one became available. As there are different types, I imagine the most popular would be the interchangeable type if it could be done at a reasonable price. I think Caterham want something like £150+ Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Day Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Did someone mention a carbon interchangable areoscreen!!!! Wow my dreams have been answered!!! I wish I had one for you to set up the process, but can I join the front of this que please!!!! I have seen so many wanted postings for a good priced areo, mine included. Please please let us know if you get it sorted for both standard and SV 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil.cavanagh Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 inter-changeble aeroscreen for an SV is high up on my wish list as well.. if the price is right count me in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee_fin Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Not even sure I should be replying to such an obvious troll as this Stick person.....Anyways, we sell carbon from various sources as we see applicable, ranging from wet-lay to pre-preg autoclaved items. We stock the complete MOG range of carbon items of which we're more than happy with, you need only take a look at their seats to see the high quality of their layup and molds and the thought that goes into the design of each of their products. This is not our main job, hence, our prices do not reflect the high quality of our components, rather, they reflect the fact that we are not in this for the money and are simply offering the discounts we have managed to obtain onto the wider community. As many satisfied customers, who have bought our components from carbon-fibre to brake pads to dataloggers and more, will testify. I have some choice words to the man with the Stick but this afterall is a public forum read by all ages and I suspect someone is just on a trolling mission. Grow up. Graeme. ________________________________________________________ graeme finlayson / tyre warmer / fluke motorsport graeme@fluke-motorsport.co.uk / www.fluke-motorsport.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Richard I have an unused screen sitting in a corner of the workshop - you are most welcome to borrrow it. JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 222bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 I have been watching this thread develop with some interest. I think the "Bloke with a Stick" is making a 100% valid dig at some of the claims made by MOG in the past. I did indeed direct the "Bloke with a Stick" (who is a "Dog in the Park" and Caterham customer - having bought carbon bits from both) to MOGs website and I am 100% sure that the wings on the page linked to are not pure carbon/kevlar as the curing process does not permit paint or gelcoat to be laid up in the same mould in a proper pure carbon or carbon kevlar pre-preg autoclaved production process. (re: black painted edges) I personally stand by the "Bloke with a Stick's" alegation that the wings shown on this referenced web page are not pure carbon. You cannot mix the GRP and Pre-preg autoclave processes like this and get consistant successful results. Facts are facts. There is quite obviously some diversity in the market for carbon, from low production cost wet layup stuff through to true unblemished 100% carbon/kevlar/honeycomble (as necessary) quality products such as those the Dog sells. Testimony to this is such that the Dog sells off some carbon parts as seconds which some customers see little or no fault with. These seconds (I'll explain this as it was implied earlier in this thread that there was a connection between cost of "seconds" and the Dogs margin on sale) are the result of a damaged tool. and the Dog has had no less than 3 sets of tools made for rear wings alone, so far this year in order to ensure the quality of the product remains unchallenged. Each set of tools is made of 32 layers of carbon - 32m sq @ £40 per metre in materials alone..... And F1 standard lay-ups and trimming do not come cheap either. Be assured however that the only financial gain made on any batch of products supplied by the DOG, is made by his suppliers. By painting out the difficult sections to lay up and retain regular weave pattern, using e-glass instead of carbon, using a single cure (in the csase of nosecones) or even wet lay up process, it is easy to make cheaper parts for Caterhams. (NOT implying MOG do any/all of these) It is also easy to think people are making money when two conceptually similar products have a price differentail as significant as that between DOG's and MOG's. This is a matter for the customer to decide. DOGs customer was merely expressing an opinion. Is that not what forums are for? Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Edited by - Fat Arnie on 25 Sep 2003 17:28:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dino ferrana Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Presume you aren't actually selling your car FA? Is it a dig at Edmansd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Hum... I rise and bite. Arnie, your post seems to outline some stuff about CF bits, etc ... great! I am sure the DOG stuff is great, and well made. However, reading "The Bloke with a Stick" posts it is a little insulting and poor to deflame something as: really see cheap carbon at its worst without giving any reason. If you read the MOG page you will not find a referance to "fibre". At the end of the day people are allowed to post opinions, but these are expected (implicitly) to be sensible and not inflamatory. I do not want to argue the symantics(sp) of an opinion vs an insult. If said poster has a problem with MOG stuff then let's hear some specific issues, preferably not under a falsename..... Rant over. Greg, Q 86 NTM (slow Green XFlow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Boy I love carbon fibre. Each time I step into the garage and view V7 with its carbon fibre wings I can only stand and stare. Can't wait for my new nosecone. Sorry, wistful reflection over. Get back to your arguing. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiF Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Lets put the carbon argument into prospective. At one end you have "Dog in the Park" / Arnie. His product is of top quality using the very best in moulds and technology. This is the F1 and aerospace manufacturing process and the best. There are a wide variety of se7en owners from the old battered version used for fun or racing go up to the BDR700 and K2RUM. Expense for the elite members with their ultimate cars is second nature - it must be the best. But for the vast majority cost is of vital importance and if owners are happy with the alternative that looks acceptable and have close but not quite the same properties in there final strength there is a second market. Many of these people would not pay top quality money anyway (wives would stop that!) I know of several with MOG products who think they are great. One should also remember that a Se7en is not Hi Tech or F1 or Aerospace technology. Sorry to tell you that! But it is a good old fashion steel tubular chassis, braised in a very basic way and until this goes hi tech does it really matter whos carbon products one buys if the customer is happy. I think everyone welcomes a clear description of how a product is constructed and what the general opinion is as to the pro's and con's. Thanks for the info Arnie. As this is really a thread regarding Fluke I apologise for the slight hi-jack earlier on. I am staying on the fence between Dog in the Park and MOG. Good luck to them both. Richard in France At last my bright yellow 226bhp Duratec 7 is on the road, with internal kevlar/carbon panels and pushrod suspension 😬 😬 😬.for pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted September 25, 2003 Share Posted September 25, 2003 Quality is not the only consideration. I bought a pair of Arnie's front arches and they were beatifully made, but they flexed like mad whem you twisted them which is something I didn't like even though fixing them to the wing stay means this isn't really an issue. Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee_fin Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 The main difference you are referring to is the wet-lay vs pre-preg carbon processes. The former being laid in a similar fashion to fibreglass, the latter using a combination of heat/pressure in a specialised oven requiring more expensive molds, which results in a far higher price (there are of course various methods within this but this is just generalising). As mentioned, we sell both types, allowing a wider choice of carbon to suit budgets from small to large - those after a purely carbon finish may choose wet-lay as it has the carbon-look but not the autoclaved carbon-fibre price. Those after the absolute weight-saving and extra strength will go the pre-preg route. Concerning DOG in the park's top quality carbon products, gee_fin: we sell carbon from various sources as we see applicable, ranging from wet-lay to pre-preg autoclaved items The world of carbon-fibre manufacturers is very small, so small in fact that we would appear to share a certain producer of pre-preg carbon fibre. So before making any assumptions I would suggest doing a little homework lest one look a little stupid and begin talking about ones own source. Graeme. ________________________________________________________ graeme finlayson / tyre warmer / fluke motorsport graeme@fluke-motorsport.co.uk / www.fluke-motorsport.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanB Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I did indeed direct the "Bloke with a Stick" (who is a "Dog in the Park" and Caterham customer - having bought carbon bits from both) to MOGs website and I am 100% sure that the wings on the page linked to are not pure carbon/kevlar as the curing process does not permit paint or gelcoat to be laid up in the same mould in a proper pure carbon or carbon kevlar pre-preg autoclaved production process. (re: black painted edges) I personally stand by the "Bloke with a Stick's" alegation that the wings shown on this referenced web page are not pure carbon. You cannot mix the GRP and Pre-preg autoclave processes like this and get consistant successful results. Facts are facts. Not quite sure what point you're trying to make here Arnie. Prepreg autoclaved carbon fibre/epoxy composite laminates, such as the Dog in the Park (or whatever psueonym is in fashion) wings, are not 'pure carbon' - they are a composite of carbon fibre and resin. Pure carbon would be structurally useless. MOG's wings are also a composite of carbon fibre and resin, the only difference is that the resin is applied by hand rather than being impregnated in the carbon fibre material before it is purchased by the laminator. It does not follow, therefore, that just because MOG's wings are manufactured using a wet lay-up process, that they are any less 'pure carbon' than yours. Oh, sorry, 'Dog in the Park's wings. I am sure that you know and appreciate this, which is why I am surprised that you have chosen to criticise a competitor in the misleading way you have. As I understand it the Dog in the Park wings have a layer of kevlar on the bottom to protect the carbon from stones. A very good idea, of course. E-glass (woven glass fibre) is also flexible and tough and will protect any layers of carbon on top. I used e-glass on sections of the wheel arches on my ex-Fury which I made for precisely this reason, and the e-glass layer did its job perfectly well. Kevlar may have a better image than e-glass, but I haven't seen anything to suggest it actually does the job any better. The fact that MOG's wings are wet lay-up mean that they have a higher proportion of resin to carbon, and are therefore not as stiff and/or light as a pre-preg wing would be. The use of e-glass rather than kevlar *may* mean that they are not as resilient to stone chips. However, I have yet to see any reasoned explantion as to why you claim the DitP wings are functionally superior to any other offerings - what do they do that others don't? The fact that they're made by someone so wonderful they hide behind a pseudonym, using expensive moulds and materials is irrelevant. I could make wings much more expensively than DitP using titanium moulds, diamond fibre reinforcements and PEEK resins. So what? It doesn't necessarily mean that they would be any better at their function. Yes, I know that F1 parts are pre-preg - again, so what? An F1 chassis is a totally different beast to a Caterham front wing in terms of its function and its structural requirements. Materials and manufacturing processes are not universally applicable - just because pre-preg carbon is a good material in one application does not necessarily mean it is perfect for everything. So far all I have seen is unjustified criticisms from you about all other CF part manufacturers, consisting of saying 'these are rubbish', and making comparisons between manufacturing methods which are at best of marginal relevance and at worst wholly misleading. Your role in this is clearly not one as a disinterested and objective observer - 'I have been watching this thread develop with some interest' - please, credit us with a little more intelligence - and I agree that if you intend to criticise MOG and every other manufacturer of CF parts then it is about time that you disclosed your quite obvious links to 'Bloke with a Stick', 'Dog in the Park' and all the other hilarious pseudonyms. It seems to me that there is room in the CF parts market for different products at different price ranges. If you or 'Dog in the Park' want to give a reasoned and fair comparison of the different products then that's one thing. Making spurious and malicious attacks on others whilst hiding behind either pseudonyms or acolytes is quite another... Edited by - DanB on 26 Sep 2003 11:34:54 bloody formatting codes... Edited by - DanB on 26 Sep 2003 11:35:42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Richard and others make the only real relevant point in this 'debate'. There is a market for all. 'Ya pays ya' money. ya' takes ya' choice'. choice People who want top quality CF components, perhaps in looks, will go to one supplier (whomever that may be) where as if I was a racer, and thought that it was highly likely that my CF wings were going to be smashed to pieces on a regular basis, I would be more concerned about price. As long as they stopped the stones and grit and complied with whatever regualtions they had to, the cheaper the better. People are (usually) clever enough to make a reasoned choice. If they purchase one product and don't think it is up to scratch, then any reputable seller will offer a refund and the customer can go to another supplier surely? It is useful to understand about the different processes involved, and that one may produce a product that is slightly heavier/stiffer/better looking etc etc (delete as applicable) but unless there is a deliberate intend to decieve, then surely some of the comments in this and other similar threads is slander? I have never bought CF components from anyone. I look forward to the day when I can, and have the choice to choose what I want to buy, and how much I wish to spend. Long live a free market, ESPECIALLY when the general opinion is that Caterham charge a huge mark up (for whatever reason) on every component they sell. The more choice of alternative suppliers the better. If product A is so supperior to product B, then product A has nothing to worry about - either its quality will sell it, through word of mouth for example, of it is operating in a different market sector than product B and so should not be so bothered as to have to slag product B off! New site! mycaterham.com here 50,000miles in 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 ... can I just add that I have really enjoyed following this thread - thank you, to all who have contributed. JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 222bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavenly7 Posted September 26, 2003 Author Share Posted September 26, 2003 Having started this thread the replies have been really helpful. It seems to me at least some of the myth and mystique surrounding carbon products has been aired! It also seems to me that it is difficult to claim the structural integrity or aerodynamic qualities of one product compared with another for Caterham use at any rate really makes a great deal of difference. In reality carbon is not being used as a safety feature (as would be the case in F1), nor even in a racing application is the slight difference in weight between one make and another or in its aerodynamic properties really going to make much of a difference. So I suspect for most of us probably the biggest deciding factor is the aesthetic one - does it look good! This is where the quality of the finish and the way the weave is set is so important. Of secondary importance is the products durability so for example kevlar reinforcing to prevent stone damage must be a good feature. Do MOG or Caterham or Dog in the Park wings look aesthetically better – I am still not really sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Heavenly, Come round to my house and I'll show you mine 😳 Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 We've all seen this argument raging (on and off) for over a year now. I think it's time we had a little transparency here, we need some independent research into each of these competing products and in fact I've already started this process only last weekend. I have a friend whole works for a 'leading motorsport team' in my area (Hants/Surrey border, use your imagination 😬). Well I did him a favour last weekend and took him out for a blast in my Superlight (actually as an aside he was telling me about his boss (A.N.) who apparently has a 300bhp Elise ) and to return the favour he's giving me a guided tour of the factory. So I've asked him if it'll be possible to get some info on F1 grade carbon-fibre manufacturing. I'm obviously looking forward to the tour and particularly the opportunity of doing some research with said company and their CF supplier. I also plan to ask if they are interested in producing some low volume components for 7's and how much this would cost (should be interesting to find out how much 'the supplier' actually charges for a rear wing ) I'll let you all know the outcome when I do. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caterhamnut Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Mike, if you need someone to carry your bags, open doors etc for you whilst on the tour, please just call. Don't hold your breath on the CF stuff though 😬 New site! mycaterham.com here 50,000miles in 2 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 I met the guy who´s doing the cf parts for MOG already some times. Nice chap who used to do all the carbon parts for the Porsche 956/962 in Group C times up until today to the more modern GTs. So he knows a bit or two about these things. Interesting thread though... 😬 Marius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Mike, Ron doesn't make them directly, and his supplier is already locked into an exclusive not to produce parts for Caterhams for anyone else. Its a good tour though.... I did it a few years ago. Its also worth noting that Caterhams own supplier went insolvent recently. Possibly through making too much, too cheaply. To save you the effort I will be buying a MOG and a current Caterham wing and will keep them for examination by the Dogs prospects. The difference is very easy to see. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Edited by - Fat Arnie on 26 Sep 2003 14:14:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Arnie, Yes I knew all that, the question is does Ron and his supplier 😬 I'll find out next week (when I meet A.N) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted September 28, 2003 Leadership Team Share Posted September 28, 2003 I didn't realise I'd open such a pot of worms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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