2016 MSA tyre list published

[cskip]

On the log book point when running 1C tyres.  Some of the tyres on the list are no longer "legal" to use on the road, e.g. Yoko A021R.  So I would assume that you can not argue that the car is road legal and thus you would need a log book (and of course FHR and Rollcage).  All comes down to the quality of the scrutineer.  

[Simon.Rogers]

Yoko 21 are not illeagal to use on the road.

[cskip]

Simon - I am completely lost.  I was led to believe that A021's are no longer "E" marked, if you buy a new set, and that without the E mark you can not use the tyres on the road.  Clearly if you have a old set they are still road legal, but the MSA tyre list does not allow for the "vintage" of the tyres...

 

[Simon.Rogers]

A non e marked tyre may not be legal to sell for use on the road.

However it can be sold for other purposes.

That same tyre can still be road legal.

Eg a tractor tyre is not intended for road use.  It is not emarked.  But it is road legal.

This is how List 1C was intended to be used/implimented but we still have not seen the Blue Book.  Until we do we can not make any decisions.

[robmar]

I am always confused by the seemingly paradoxially statements  "not legal to sell for use on the road"  and  "can still be road legal"

how can something that is not legal to be sold for a purpose be then legal to be used for said purpose...

appreciate your point re tractor tyres, but what compound do they come in and any in 13"

[Jeff S]

I think this was mentioned before, but how available would list 1c tyres become, and will the tyre manufacturers carry on making them for a shrinking market?

We dont want to be in a position where we struggle to obtain our tyre of choice.

 

Jeff

[Simon.Rogers]

Rob. I know someone who has a tractor or two we can ask! 

[david nelson]

Hi

Tyres 

I would not have bought new tyres last year if i was doing the championship. All my sets of ZZR's are shot in preparation to the comming season.

I am sure i will not buy list 1c tyres after following this thead. I realise it comes down to what other champoionships are doing but if most doing 1a or b for road going i would follow the flock.

List 1c may be used on the road as per tractor tyre but not sure class 3 should use either next year.

[Nigel Fox]

I agree with David and others that we need to remain aligned with other championships in our choice of tyres. 

If it wasn't for the so obviously flawed concept of using records to decide the overall championship, (when we have no control over course changes, tyre regs, weather etc.), then use of whatever tyres prescribed by the MSA wouldn't be much of an assue.

[Simon.Rogers]

One of the WSCC members has draughted a petition which requests that the MSA revise the exclusion of List 1C from Roadgoing classes.

1.  We are yet to formally be told that that is indeed the case.

2. It may not even be our choice to use 1C in some or all of the classes when we actually look deeper into it.

3. However a 1C is a road legal tyre!

4. It is a roadgoing class.

5. We should have a choice.

I will be supporting it simply because of point 5.

List 1C Tyre Petition

[Richard Price]

As it would appear the MSA has already ruled out the use of list 1C tyres in the national leaders hillclimb championship, I think it's most unlikely that the MSA will allow list 1C tyres in any other class that claims to be road going.

As Jeff suggests, ongoing supplies to list 1C tyres in suitable compounds may be more of an issue than what the MSA allow us to do.

If we do manage to retain list 1C tyres, but can't get new ones, then I can see that those you've manged to hold onto enough stock will have a clear advantage as the year progresses.

Maybe the MSA actually deem that some of the cars worst effected by this, don't really fit in the spirit of "roadgoing" classes, and see this as a way of shifting some of the more extreme cars in to the "modified" catagory, with it's higher safety requirements (that many of us meet anyway).

Whilst I have tyres that would see me well into the new year, I'd support a move to use the new List 1B, and hopefully encorage more folks running closer to standard Caterham OEM tyres to come and compete.

[Leg]

Just out of curiosity, who are the List 1C tyres going to be used by? I cant see anyone in the Blue Book, who will be using them.

The HSA have said we will have to use 1B's to stay in Road Going, we are just waiting to see what they are going to do about the Class B2 records. Other classes may not want them to be lowered by a percentage, so the only choices are to compete against the old ones (with little chance of getting there) or for them to be set at zero, which you wont be competitive in the overall championship.

I wouldnt mind going to Mod Prod if anyone ever implemented the Class rules properly, but they wont!

[Stuart Miller 7]

Hi Lyn

Just curious - what's wrong with the Mod Prod class rules and what is not implemented?

On the 1B / 1C tyre issue, I would vote for "roadgoing" to be MSA 1B list and the resetting of all of the records.  I think half of them should be reset anyway with some events now prohibiting tyre warming, added to the fact that some of the old records were set at circuits where we were allowed to spin the rears as a "one off" (Anglesey 2012 for example).

We'll just have to come up with another way of deciding the overall championship.

[Simon.Rogers]

Even more need for dual drive now 

[Stuart Miller 7]

You can be driver one for me Simon if you like but I feel you may struggle with having to:

Get off the startline without launch, change gear with a clutch, get out of corners without traction control, not to mention having to take your left hand off the wheel a dozen times................

*rofl*

[Simon.Rogers]

 

[The Headmaster]

I am organising a bulk buy of special Grip tyre softner. No odour,  well it doesn't smell when it's in the tin 

Prices of this product are already increasing on the open market but for Championship competitors I can do a special deal.

Names and addresses below please.

 

Comes with free gas mask.

[Comp Sec]

 

Answer received from MSA today - see below

The regulations in S11.6.2 have not changed, in that for the Roadgoing Categories tyres must be to list 1a or 1b. As ever, championship regulations can tighten up to require only 1a or only 1b, but they cannot be opened beyond the general regulation to allow tyres that are not 1a or 1b listed.

Apologies if you are already aware of this but I wanted to make it clear that this is not a decision taken for any reason other than legislation. The change has been forced upon us by changes in EU/EEC regulations regarding the sale of tyres, to be sold for public highway use a tyre needs to comply with the new labelling regulations that measure factors such as rolling resistance, wet performance, road noise etc.. if a tyre does not meet the new labelling regulations then it cannot be sold for use on the public highway. The only reason a tyre would have been removed from list 1b onto 1c is because the manufacturer has confirmed that it does not comply with the new EU labelling regulations.

And as I’m sure you can see, we cannot have general regulations that allow the use of tyres which cannot be sold for road use in the Roadgoing Categories. Competitors were given notice in the 2015 MSA yearbook that tyres may be removed from list 1b for 2016.

[OliW]

Thanks Paul, I thought they'd say that and it makes reasonable sense in the circumstances, I guess.

[Simon.Rogers]

Dear All

I would like to really start to look at the future of Road Going classes now so that we can all have time to think about it.

As you can imagine one or two of ua have been discussing at length the options for the L7C classes and my post is not on behalf of that group of people but my own view which changed last night when I saw the full MSA response and noted the wording within.

I guess we could live with the current 1B change if we have to within the Club regs.  As Oli has just said you could justify and argue the case.  But when the "F" grade E mark is dropped in 2 or 3 years time as is alread set out by the EU the MSA will now most definitely be faced with the same action - exclude non saleable for road use tyres.

That will mean that all road going classes will be forced to use what are effectively 1A tyres as they stand.

Whereas I can accept the change now to the new 1B list I have to say I am now thinking that we should make the change now and push everyone Mod Prod Classes 3 - 6.

Yes there are costs for the FHR etc.  I acknowledge that and it will prevent some people continuing - put people off etc.  But I really don't see that being any different when Emar F is dropped.

Yes we would likely be different to most if not all other clubs.  But hey we own silly little cars originaly produced in 1957!

There are lots of negatives to going Mod Prod now for 2016 and beyond but I really think it could benefit us in the future.

If we go 1B for 3 - 6 as most other have already shown they are in other clubs.

We will then have to reset records?  Throw away some perfectly good 1C tyres.

Then in 2 years time Those two years of competition will have added nothing to the records and classes 1,2 and 7 will have not been able to compete against long established records. We will have effectively wasted 2 years competition etc?  Waste 1B tyres again?  

Cost now (FHR's) may be the better way forward.

For the sake of trying to encourage competitors an not exclude them - I would not want to by a FHR just to try something out. Add a class 2B for any car not falling into 1 or 2 and not wishing to run FHR's - a try it out class only for 1 year only!  They would have to be on 1b tyres. Not eligible for any Championship points etc etc. Just event by event.

Sorry Rambling - It may not be the end now but it will be the end of Roadgoing for Specialist Production classes in a couple of years time!

Comments please.  This is designed to make us think.

[OliW]

Simon,

You make some good thought provoking points there.  Who’d have thought? ;)

It seems to me that we have three options:

1) Keep all classes as road-going, limiting classes 3-6 to the new and perhaps only temporarily permitted 1B tyres on the new list.

2) Allow classes 3-6 to be run as mod-prod on 1C tyres, but, to enable inclusiveness and new entrants, create a rule that cars in those classes remain in road-going spec physically even if not taxed and MOTd.

3) Go mod-prod all the way, giving freedom to modify cars to the extent permitted by the rules.

All have their pros and cons, but it seems to me that the third option should be excluded on the grounds that our championship is primarily for road-going cars. 

Oli

[Simon.Rogers]

Hi Oli - Cheeky B********d :-)

I should clarrify I had no intention of option 3  only 1 or 2.

[Alan Bowler]

Not sure about trying to second guess what will be in List 1B in 2 or 3 years time. The manufacturers will still produce "sporty" tyres that fit the new regulations, and tyre technology constantly improves. There won't be much of a UK market left for 1C tyres. Mod prod cars will end up on slicks or 1Bs. My recollection of the Avon article in Low Flying was that they are focussed on 1B ZZS tyres long term, and ZZRs will be phased out. You also have the risk of a few lucky people being able to source the last of the 1C tyres.

Not much good for anyone with a new set of 1Cs though.

Also, going it alone on 1Cs discourages people who run in other championships. Plus use of 1Bs opens up new cars on OEM tyres being more competetive, which is a good thing.

The championship scoring based on class record problem can be fixed.

Will try and think of a better system for overall championship scoring.
Something along the lines of biggest improvement over OR closest to previous 2 years average winning time or record gets 10 points, second gets 9 etc. which also takes into account poor weather at an event, minor layout changes, tyre warming restrictions, and doesn't need events to be longstanding/dry before they can be considered. Top 7 scores only. A few flaws in that but might be in the right direction.

NB. Class 1 and 2 have had the best tyres come and go (Bridgestones? Stunners, AD08s) and not asked for the records to be reset each time  

[robmar]

To be honest I am in 2 minds about what is best for our overall championship going forward...

Do we align 100% to the MSA and say all road going classes (1-6) must run on 1a/1b  what ever tyres are available, and anyone wanting to run 1c goes into 7 and run to modprod.  This I think probably has the better long term view as we align to what ever the MSA wants, is open and exclusive to new competitors with the little- est expense....

This means when/if there is a reduction in F tyres we just align... (hard to second guess if those tyres will be worse/better than what will be the tyre of choice)

But it opens up the issue of how do we manage records, champions  as Simon mentions once and maybe twice etc.

Or do we take Simons suggestion and say 3-7 run modprod, but everyone needs to spend now on safety and other stuff and I think would not make those classes attractive to potential new competitors.

My personal psoition is that I was throwing away my ZZR's after this season (3 years old and past best) and waiting upon what the regs will be, so I am not in a position where my tyres are new and can appreciate those that have newish tyres and cost implication of getting something else...

But when I look back maybe through rose tinted glasses, at when our championship was at its most vibrant (100+ competitors) cars where generally running what would be the equivalant of the 2016 List 1a/1b tyres, and where less modified to suit our regulations.

Rob

[Simon.Rogers]

We need to ask more questions.

I have now found out that F rated tyres will not be eligable for sale after the end of 2016.

They have not been asterisced in the 2016 Tyre list so assuming they are asterisked for 2017 we do only have 2 years of use out of the current F rated tyres.

I think we as a Club need somehow to get this clarrified.