2016 MSA tyre list published

[Richard Price]

I think submitting an application to the MSA where we stipulate that certain classes run tyres from list 1C may create classes where folks simply can't get suitable tyres. At this stage, we have no idea what tyres will actually be available as next year progresses.

Unfortunately, championship scoring that is based on records is flawed in other ways. This year we've had at least three events where the course has been different to previous years (was Blyton also different?), and we're not likely to have tyre warming any events in the future either.

It's not that many years ago that the roadgoing classes actually changed from only allowing list 1a's to allowing list 1b's. Maybe the cars that are deemed to be "dangerous" on list 1a's should really considder a real move to mod. prod., and the free tyre choice that that offers?

I maintain that our championship should be open to the average member who fancies having a go, therefore, catering for cars running the tyres that they were originally supplied with may be the most "inclusive" route to take.

 

Personally, I have tyres to see me well into next season, but I'd be happy to accept running tyres from the revised list 1b, if it were to encourage newcomers.

 

 

 

[david nelson]

Grass roots motorsport is what we do. The aim or the aim was to give members of the lotus seven club somewhere to sprint and hill climb. For anyone who wants to go to grander championships this has always been fine.

 

it is for this reason why I do not think we should go down the 1c mod prod route for classes 3 to 6.

i can see no issues with class 3 and 4 running class 1 b tyres. It's class 5 and 6 that need thought. Class 5  on less than sticky tyres and 260 bop sound mad. I could see 5 and 6 going mod prod on safety grounds.

I also question the need for list 1a and b and just make it road going tyre.

 

David

 

[Leg]

As nobody replied to my question about what are List 1C tyres for, I am assuming that it comes under the catagory of 'nobody knows'?

There are lots of questions here and I certianly dont have a clear answer any more than anyone else does.I definitely agree that the tyre manufacturers will catch up over time and there will eventually be 'better' road going tyres. I can understand why the MSA have gone the route they have, it's the only way of achieving immediate clarity - road going is road going!

For Class 4 to go to 'restricted Mod Prod' would be great for me, I already use an FHR, and have a brand new set of Kumho SS in the garage - I'd even save the tax. However to run the same car in Mod Prod in other series would render it completely uncompetitive.

To answer SM's question about what I dont like about Mod Prod - it just tends to be an 'anything goes' class Stu - its supposed to be 'modified production', ie you still have to start it from inside the car etc - little of this seems to be implemented.

The question of the overall L7C championship seems simple to me - so much has changed with tyre warming going etc.  - just set all the class records to zero! That'll give you a level playing field.

[Simon.Rogers]

More information I would like!e to pass on.

I had a wide ranging conversation with Avon today trying to look at the future supply of tyres across the range of Lists.

The reason I felt it necessary was not particularly because of the current change to 1b but because of the exclusion of F rated tyres in a few years time.

If we think that the upheaval now is difficult then that will be a nightmare.  The Yoko A539 a current class leading list 1a tyre is F rated and so will not by definition be allowed in a Road Going class. The MSA has made it clear given its wording during this change.

Avon will continue to make the ZZR in A24 compound and they see no point in time when this would change. The batch size only needs to be 10 sets.  Kumho have confirmed in writing to a WSCC competitor that the V70 will also be supplied going forward.  There is stock now by the way.

So going forward we can continue to run as we do now with 1c if we go Mod Prod and all that that brings = a FHR really is all.

There may be many arguments to follow the other clubs out there as put forward by Richard which I may agree with but further forward - just a couple of years and what will we do then.  Class 2 and 3 will almost certainly merge as the tyre choice will be the same. E rated tyres! Good luck on those ZV3 etc!!!

What else would we use to differentiate between the classes?

I am following the WSCC forum also as I have access and my guess is some of their classes will also end up in Mod Prod.

[robmar]

Thanks for info Simon...

In your conversations was there any discussion about what there feeling was for "E" rating tyres in a few years time, in terms of how they will try and produce a tyre that is as sticky as possible but retaining that "E" rating...

Also do you know what there plans are for supplying caterham in the future with a sticky tyre as possible once we go "E" rating, will they be selling 620's on "E" tyres....

Of course do remember those brave (stupid) souls who used to run R500's on list 1a's - maybe we have all just got used to lots of grip and remember what was possible back in the day (yes i realise some ended up in the trees, but said person also ended up in the barriers with sticky tyres as well  )

Rob

 

[Mark Durrant]

but said person also ended up in the barriers with sticky tyres as well

A ditch if you don't mind and I seem to recall a certain car disappearing into the undergrowth at Llys y Fran  

[robmar]

ah but said car never went off on list 1a's....

[david nelson]

Boys 

 

back to tyres

watching F1 yesterday in the wet shows that grip is not everything. I see no issues with the less powerful classes using road going tyres. Class 5 and 6 is a different story in my view.

f rated tyres will go as Simon has said. This will change all road going classes and we will need to adjust as the time come. Making classes go to mod prod is something I hope does not happen as it will stop club members having a go.

I had thought about doing class 2 but as. A539 are f rated they will be a one season tyre.

 

david

 

 

[Jeff S]

Have I missed something?

So we are allowed to use 1B in roadgoing format, but if the tyres are F marked they will be banned soon but not at a clearly specified time??

Which tyres are F marked?... We buy a new set for 2016 only to have to buy another set for 2017?

I was all for staying roadgoing, but it does'nt seem so clear cut now

Luckily my ZZR's are shot so new tyres are needed, but now the options are more ZZR's (2 seasons use and as Simon states available) + FHR versus potential 2 sets of tyres for next 2 seasons.

 

Jeff

[Simon.Rogers]

That's why I made the post Jeff I think we need to be looking further than 2016.

But I want to be clear the only exact info I have that OE fit cars can not be sold on F rated tyres from Nov 2016. 

It may be a couple of years until F rated are stopped from sale in aftermarket but it is certainly on its way.

I therefore think it a shame to change something now which could well work and be perfectly acceptable for it to have to change again in the future to something unacceptable to most.

We need all the info we can get.

I had thought of a class structure that would accommodate all options and now someone else has pretty much come up with the same off their own back but made it better!

It will be posted following Paul's criteria.

 

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Now from a tight Welshman's point of view.

You are in class 3 or 4 and do not need newtyres for 2016 as they have plenty of tread left (means you didn't try hard enough  )

So you need to spend £500 on new tyres that have less grip and go slower more dangerously or spend £250 on Hans or £500 on Hybrid to keep the same performance and be safer!

[Leg]

As a very tight Scots girl, with a brand new set of Kumhos in the garage (didnt get a chance to use them this year Simon), who already has a HANS .............................................

the only objection I can see in L7C going to 'restricted Mod Prod' seems to be that if you run in another series this will force you in to an 'open' Mod Prod class in that series.

All the different series are having these same discussions, HSA say that it would be impossible to police running a 'road going mod prod' class within 'mod prod' and are therefore dismissing the idea on the grounds that the restrictions would be unenforcable. It is a shame we cant get some momentum behind this idea, if all series had in effect two different Mod Prod classes it would certainly ease the current situation until about 2017.

(Many of the series such as HSA where you compete against Class Records are not even going to look at re-setting the class records in Road Going, meaning that no Road Going competitior will be winning any open series for some time to come).

[david nelson]

Got HANS but do not feel mod prod is the way forward.

i am not sure we should second guess the future. We should deal with facts. Thing are changing and we need to change too.

question what does the club championship what to be?

it has always been presented as a championship for club members. We should not stop members for having a go. The membership needs to be looked after not just those how are already doing it. Keeping class 1 to 4 road going makes the championship accessible to the membership. Is this not what the club is about?

david

 

[Richard Price]

I'm absolutely with David on this.

We could look after the few of us that have some soft tyres, or we could make the move to closer to OEM Caterham tyres like CR500's, ZZS's, or the standard compound ZZR's (although there may be some question of the legality of ZZR's depending on whether OE refers to the tyre alone, or the car and tyre combination, and so any car older than 2008[?] may not be eligible?). There is also Toyo R888 and R888r on the new list 1b.

We're much less likely to encourage newcomers if the have got to add HANS to helmet overalls and gloves, AND they may perceive that the need specialist soft tyres as well.

 

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Well we need proposals from you guys on how you would organise the class rules to allow for this.

It doesn't seem like anyone is thinking ahead to 2018 just about now.

I will guarantee that there will be more people excluded in the future when road going lists exclude all the 1b tyres currently used from use.

There needs to be some form of class structure that will allow both ends of the spectrum.

However it's for everyone to submit ideas or call me and I am sure Paul and Mark will take calls to try and form an idea if you want to check it out first.

[robmar]

IMHO - I think it is hard to second guess what the tyre performance will be for any "E" rated tyres of the future, or what in fact the MSA will do with regard tyre lists in the future, or what OEM fitment CC have.  What we can be sure of is that change is coming, and I agree with the sentiments of David & Richard in that our championship is for our club members first and foremost, so we need to do everything in our collective power to make sure the championship is open to new club members and or casual competitors.  And actually the removal of the stcikier compounds from "road going" MSA categories must be a good thing for this.

So along with the physical change of tyres we have the added complication of what we do about records and championship scoring in any significant class structure change.  As others have noted some major championships are not resetting records.which you can argue is good or bad.  I believe since we moved to a records based overall champion that every year the winner of that trophy has actually been the person most deserving of that award.  But if we make changes now, and then have to make changes again in a few years time (potentially) then maybe we can devise a new scoring system to decide the overall champion.

I have an idea that I will propose to Paul shortly, and if any others have ideas I recommend you do that too.

Rob

[Graham Howard]

I agree that we should keep at least classes 1 to 4 as inclusive as possible  and that means keeping them as road going. We should see this as an opportunity to attract more competitors as many will already have decent tyres from the new 1b list.

Those  who are already addicted would probably equip themselves with whatever tyres are demanded by the regulations. It is the new or casual entrant we need to think about.

I don't see any need to change the tyre regs for classes 3 and 4, just go with the new 1b list. Classes 5 and 6 are always going to have small entries and there may be a case for non road going.

 We cannot  predict what is going to happen in 2 years time, technology may move on so that we have E rated tyres better than the current F rated.

Just a few thoughts from class 2 ......having used 3 different types of tyre over the last 5 seasons.

Graham 

[Tony Smith]

Goodwood was my first experience of competitive motorsport.I am now hooked and will do whatever I need in order to compete next season.However if I had needed new tyres and FHR in order to have a go I am not sure I would have found out how much fun it is.

Whatever else changes I hope we can keep the club championship as accessible as possible.

Tony