Ford Duratec.

[greg]

Here's a question for those with more knowledge than me:

 

Is it possible to cast a mirror head with the exhaust on the "right" side? Afterall the BDR was a "special" head for caterham.

 

Greg, Q 86 NTM (Green 185BHP XF)

[AMMO]

Greg

 

It's cheaper to re-skin the car than to cast a new head. The price would be horrendous. Pattern making alone would run to several thousands. I recently got a quote for a simple motorcycle sump and the pattern alone was 3K. A head would be a lot more than that. Once you've got the casting you have to machine it for followers, insert guides and seats etc. Machining costs on prototype 16 v heads runs to around 6K each head.

 

Although the other option is to reverse the head which is what Judd and IES did with the Nissan Touring car engine so the induction system pointed forward. Still not cheap though.

 

 

 

AMMO

[greg]

Thanks Ammo,

 

Although I appreciate a reskin is easy and cheap, I though that as the head is already "made" making a mirror is just the inverse of the original - maching and all - little R&D required.

 

Greg, Q 86 NTM (Green 185BHP XF)

[AMMO]

Greg

 

If only life were that simple! You probably never been in the unfortunate situation of having to to have these sort of things made. I assure you that to do a proper job is very expensive.

 

You could try leaving the head in its current orientation and using the intake port as an exhaust and the exhaust port as an intake. You would have to weld the combustion chamber and ports and re-intall seats. Less messing around than trying to reverse the head. The angle of dangle and the size of the intake and exhaust ports are completely different. The water jacket and port castings are not going to work in your favour and it will still turn out as a mediocre job with a head that would not achieve it's full potential.

 

I'm sticking with the (relatively) cheap Zetec for the foreseeable future until the prices come down.

 

Pre '98 Zetecs which were introduced in '92 are now discontinued and are only available as re-conditioned units. They have the ports in the standard Caterham configuration and represent really good value for money.

 

The Zetec is dead. Long live the Zetec.

 

AMMO

[RiF]

Hi All,

Sorry I am a bit late on seeing this subject but working in Belgium at the moment for 3 weeks.

 

I am planning on building a Duratec se7en. I am trying to do the figures and confirm how best to order the components. Over the past year I have been in contact with Raceline but parts have not been ready. Seems they are just about there now, just the waterrail to go into production. New development is the dry sump in tests.

 

They say standard engine 2lt with throttle bodies produces 185 bhp and with a cam change it is 210 bhp. Gather these are varified figures. Further power to be developed once they have completed one step of modifications and tested them.

 

I would like to hear from anyone else that is also thinking or planning a new sev7en powered by a Duratec engine so that we can compare the best route and kit parts required.

 

Chris (Clark) if you read this I am the person who was with the yellow se7en from France at the Holiday Inn Express for the International. Hello. Could you ask Mick Attree to e-mail me so I could pick his brains on his Duratec car, please.

 

E-mail: sales@goodville-engineering.com

 

Hope to hear from more Duratec enthusiasts soon,

 

Richard in France (well Belgium then!)

[edmandsd]

I was talking to HT Racing about this engine only recently and although they initially thought it would be a sound basis for modifying, and lightweight as a result of its all aluminium construction, they'd heard several reports of unexplained reliability problems ranging from relatively minor to serious.

 

If I were considering an engine such as this i'd let other people be the guinea pig and only acquire one when it's proven itself in terms of true output potential and longevity....that's why it took me 30 years before I was convinced enough to use a BD 😳

 

Home of BDR700

 

Edited by - edmandsd on 9 Sep 2002 17:18:32

[mic]

Dave ,I expect you will leave it 30 years before you try that lightwight sequential g/box

[Jason Plato]

😬Ahhh first talk of the nail

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

[Peter T]

I will wait untill all the hype has been proven.

The likes of all the tuners quoting mega high BHP just fuels the market for their own sales!!

Reliability and it's weakness have yet to manifest itself.

Anyway what is so special about getting 250-300bhp from 2.3 litres?

Dave Andrews is getting figures like these froman 1800-1900cc K series, yes everybody complains that they are unreliable/ expensive to build maintain, but what makes people think the nail is so bullet proof yet?

A couple of years will see development and prices of components will come down to quantities, also more products will begin to flood the market. 😬

I will let the pioneers do all the ground work.

 

R500 Mango Madness

[Jason Plato]

😬

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

[metal mickey]

Anyway what is so special about getting 250-300bhp from 2.3 litres?

So Peter, can you extract 300hp from 2.3 litre or are you another armchair expert 🤔

[I.Mupferit]

My Duratec certainly had a problem initially which, happily, is now resolved although rather less happily nobody has been able to come up with a satisfactory explanation of why it behaved in the way it did.

 

It was an oil pressure problem that caused the oil pressure to just fall away at anything over about 4000 rpm and despite changing just about everything associated with the oil delivery system, it was no different. Eventually, even after a complete stripdown, it still wasn't apparent what had been causing the problem Clearances were checked and found to be within tolerance, oilways were unplugged (as far as was possible) and checked but still there was no obvious reason why a normal oil pressure of 75 psi when hot, would fall away to 40 psi, and still droppping, at only 5500 rpm. I had changed to a mechanical gauge btw, to eliminate the usual duff sender cause.

 

I don't know what would have happened had I kept increasing the rpm - it would have gone bang probably ❗

 

I now have a new engine but it still irritates that we never really got to the bottom of what the problem was.

 

Having said all that, I do think the Duratec will prove to be a lot more durable than the K series at higher outputs although it still is relatively early in its development life.

 

Edited to give credit where it's due: Peter McEwen at Raceline was absolutely unreproachable in his attempts to sort the problem for me and gave me all the support necessary to achieve a resolution. It was nice to see he wasn't prepared to walk away from the problem and I can't praise him highly enough for sticking with it. *thumbup* *thumbup*

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 17 Jan 2007 09:55:12

[7 wonders of the world]

Slightly O/T,

 

I was toying with the idea of an all steel, alloy blocked and alloy head X/Flow, with TB's etc, could make for a nice light little screamer, should be good for 10K 😬

 

The alloy head has redesigned ports and cooling galleries and can be either flat or chambered

 

Not cheap, some would say not cool, but would certainly be different, and is another option for the X/flow boys who want to keep their cars looking original without bastardising them with a Zetec.

 

http://www.cncheads.co.uk/ford_alloy_xflow_bv.html

 

 

Too young to be old !

[AMMO]

This is what I said in 2002:

 

"10K is probably more in the ballpark for an installed high output Duratec." Pretty much spot -on

 

"I have seen 158 / 160 cfm on my flowbench for heads with similar sizes as the Duratec. There is no reason to believe that the Duratec will not achieve this. This gives it a 275 bhp potential. With more work and possibly bigger valves more could be achievable." Flowbench and dyno predictions also correct.

 

I also got the 300 bhp that I said was possible proving the doubters wrong. My predictions were based on experience gained from previous work.

 

I suppose 25 years of engine building and 11 years of running a championship winning race team do count for something? Maybe not according to the noobs who know it all from knowledge they have gleaned from trawling internet forums or out of books.

 

I'm fed up of being told by people my job is a piece of piss because it ****in' ain't. 300 bhp from a Duratec. Easy innit! If only you had a clue about how much work I put into Danny LT's engine. Head and induction is similar to my mid-90's race bike and to a Ducati that won at Daytona. Using experience of something that actually works. Well there is a novel approach! I'm also told by people who have never built an engine that flowbenches don't work. Really?

 

Experience is nothing. Who needs it when you have Google?

 

Perhaps I'll set up an eBay shop selling crap. A much easier way to make a living.

 

AMMO

[Normans_Ghost]

Ammo, I thought you realised that there are some (one) on here who knows EVERYTHING.

 

Don't get despondant there are far more of us who do value the work you and others do to obtain these very high engine outputs.

 

For what it's worth, I know how to flow a head but haven't done any such work for 38 years (on BMC "A" series) and had no experience with BDR heads. I paid an expert (Roger KIng) to do this work for me and it was worth every penny I paid him.

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[AMMO]

Norman

 

Different people have different experiences regarding flowbenches. I value them as a tool. Others don't. That is fine as long as the output of the engine is good who cares?

 

What I object to is people telling me my job is easy.

 

AMMO

[7 wonders of the world]

AMMO,

 

Used to in the same line of work, easy no ❗, many hours with the engine builders, then many more on the dyno ❗

 

Getting the power is one thing making it reliable is another, this is what some don't understand and that's where many moons of experience such as your comes into play

 

Last one I was involved with was Pete Well's naturally aspirated 2Ltr YB giving 222 @ wheels, this last a whole rally season, regularly beat works entries

 

After taking the championship he did a club event for fun and dropped a valve at full chat - all that was salvageable was the top hose 😳

 

 

Too young to be old !

[dannylt]

Oh dear, you haven't been letting a years-old thread wind you up Ammo? Maybe not an easy job - after watching the amount of effort that went into it - but I'm sure a lot of us envy you for having a FUN job . Anyway, 300bhp is soooo last year - what about THIS year .

 

[Jason Plato]

Ohhh eck !

 

I didnt mean to ruffle feathers, I was searching for some info on the nail and I came across this thread from 02. I thought it was interesting that many of the views and predictions have materialised all positive. I thought it was interesting to review how things have progressed in the past 4 years with the nail

 

I thought PeterT's post was tongue in cheek and not critical 🤔

 

If Peter T was being serious then he must be in denial 😬

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 17 Jan 2007 10:59:44

[dannylt]

Why does a "nail" refer to a duratec? I thought nail referred to any crappy track car. Hence duranail for a naily duratec powered track car.

[rj]

It would be a shame to see another great engine builder leave business.

 

AMMO, please don't get too fed up!

 

/regin

[I.Mupferit]

Oh I don't think there's any danger of him leaving the business. You know how hot-tempered these Mediterranean types can get sometimes and then it all blows over 5 seconds later when the next beautiful woman walks by.

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

[AMMO]

Brent

 

I have decided to start a business selling carbon fibre. How difficult can it be? Everybody wants it. The stuff sells itself. I'll be a millionaire by Christmas.

 

Now that my engine bay is empty I have been toying with the idea of switching to a Rover instead of building another Duratec. You know how undecisive I am. Maybe I'll wait until the Rover proves itself to be reliable...... On the other hand I would like to drive the car at some point this summer. Back to plan A I think.

 

300 bhp VX? I've never seen one, don't know of anybody who has one. If such a thing exists why have we never had one at the dyno days I organise? A mythical creature that is talked about and never seen. Ever. In fact i'm starting to doubt about its existance.

 

The Discontinued Engine Owners Club like to criticise the Duratec just to justify their questionable choice of power plant. The Duratec is seven years old now. What does it have to do to prove itself? Maybe the DEOC will adopt the Duratec when they stop making it in a few years time.

 

Carbon tax disc holder anyone? I thought I'd start small and work my way up to bigger components as the business expands.

 

AMMO

[Stuart Faulds]

Ammo, I hope you're selling pre-preg carbon - *EVERYONE* knows that wet-lay is just rubbish

 

Danny, TAAN

[Tony Whitley]

*thumbup* 😬 😬

 

(Proud member of the DEOC)