Delberts Wallet Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 I've not long had the car which I bought second hand from Caterham. I took it for a nice drive friday after noon and found that under heavy braking the rear wheels would lock up and I couldn't even get the front to. I assume the only way to rectify this is to ugrade the front brakes some how. What do you reckon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Apart from spending loads with AP or Alcon you can get somethng close to the desired effect by fiiting agressive front pads or detuning the rear brakes or both. Agressive front pads... metallic compound from Hawke. Detuned rear brakes... cut away about a third of the pads. Wahoo... Does this mean you've got a car that doesn't stop as well as your brother's scooby? Edited by - stewartg on 18 Mar 2001 06:45:37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 That is a bit worrying really. I would suggest you have a dealer look at them first. Then try the pads etc. keep an eye for the front discs warping. Simon. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark.hall Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 A perrennial problem, it would seem. You might like to try Dave Andrews approach an fit an adjustable pressure regulator. Either an after market one, or the "home-made" version on his web-site here and follow the links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FH Posted March 18, 2001 Share Posted March 18, 2001 Gareth - Have hauled Mr FH in from the potting shed and he says...... It could be the brake balance between front and rear, in which case it would need to be checked or, without causing offence, it could be your braking technique wink.gif Do you want to lock up the wheels? or are you maybe needing to brake a little earlier with less heavy pressure? If the surface is dodgy, you need to apply cadence or rhythmic braking, in a smooth and regular fashion. The brakes are not servo assisted - so you need to think earlier about the braking as part of the overall driving plan teeth.gif Gosh - that's all very technical wink.gif FH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberts Wallet Posted March 18, 2001 Author Share Posted March 18, 2001 FH, None taken wink.gifas I agree that my driving style may be at fault but surely it is not right. What I am saying is that rears only lock up under heavy breaking ie Emergency Stop. So if I need to stop quickly to prevent an accident I can could end up causing one sad.gif. Not a good thing to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 I thought it was common knowledge that standard brakes are not balanced front-back at all well, after all the fronts were designed for a spitfire and the rears for a sierra even if you apply pressure progressively, not easy to do in an emergency, the back will lock first and slew the car off line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 This should not happen, it is dangerous and should be checked. Caterham racers use brake balance regulators - need I say more? The ideal is all 4 contact points applying equal retardation - the reality is the fronts should do most of the work. Practice emergency stops on an empty straight stretch of road with a balance bar and dial the car in so that you achieve the best "balance" front to rear, making sure the rears do some work too. More info. on this under left foot braking, DDC etc. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 I disagree the ideal is a braking system which, in extremis, can lock the fronts but still leave the rears just turning to maintain directional stability. It's true a brake balance bar will alleviate the problem but it does hydraulically what chopping bits off the rear pads does physically, it achieves a balance by limiting rear brake effectiveness better to improve front brake effectiveness. However you do it no matter how powerful they are if the brakes are not balanced front to back and side to side they're a liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Try Green Stuff Pads from James Whiting. THey are a cheap upgrade to front brakes that no wmean that I can just lock the fronts before the rears - excellent value. Cheers, Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodster Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 Garreth, I'd echo Simon Scotts worries and go straight to a dealer to get them sorted out. All cars are desigend so that their front brakes lock up first the reason being that any lateral force on a car which has locked rear brakes will cause the rear end to want to move to the front with the free wheeling wheels (the front ones) to want to move to the rear. This is the inherently more stable position (front locked, rear free wheeling that is). One thing you may consider checking is you tyre pressures as they can have a marked effect on the forces that can be generated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberts Wallet Posted March 19, 2001 Author Share Posted March 19, 2001 Thankyou for all your replies but there does seem to be a difference of opinion. I'll give Caterham a ring and see what they have to say seeing as they only sold me the car two months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 My experiences are... My very first 7 (drums on rear) did the rear lock up thing on the road (standard brakes). Not very pleasant. You do learn to plan ahead and think more.... When all was hot on the track all was fine. My 2nd 7 also had drums on the rears (standard brakes) the balance way perfect on the road and on the track. The difference was pads / linings. My current 7 has Caterham supplied standard rear disks / pads and AP big brakes on the front with the supplied Ferrodo pads. The balance here is IMHO perfect in all conditions inc extreme braking with slicks on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberts Wallet Posted March 19, 2001 Author Share Posted March 19, 2001 I've now spoken to those wonderful people wink.gif at Caterham and they've fobbed me off with the following; "try lookning at the rear pads and if they are black then thet are the right one, if they're anything other then black then they're not the right ones" and they continued..."if they're black then rinng us back, if they're not black then change them for black ones".....WHAT? So I guess I'll take a look at the rear brake pads then and check the colourteeth.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PACR Posted March 19, 2001 Share Posted March 19, 2001 This was happening on mine. Got lots of advice but I just got used to it and learnt to brake properly - theres very little dive, which removes one of the usual sensations of heavy braking in a car. I found I was being far too sharp on the brakes at times - if you can't lock the front then start worrying. Once things get bedded in - I think my fronts were glazed from underuse - you'll find it's much better. When on a track I had my rears more likely to lock from bad gearchanging whilst braking than from the braking, if you see what I mean. Cheers Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 Wilwood or the yank alternative, I can't understand why you blokes flap so mucH? Use yer bonces, u can do the same thing L-R... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhill Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 This is normal for STD brakes. As Graham already said try ECB Green Stuff pads from JW (about 25 quid). They have a higher coefficient of friction, so the same pedal effort applies more braking effort to the front wheels than the std pads. I did this and the fronts started to lock *almost* at the same time as the rears. They are also more resistant to heat than std pads, so are less likely to fade on the track, though I still experience a spongy pedal by the end of the day at track days. The next step is Red Stuff pads, but these don't work so well until warm, and their coefficient of friction is lower than the Green Stuff pads, so back to the original problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R500 CYA Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 Gareth, My car does this too, I have the green pads, but don't remember this being a problem, on the road or track, last year. I'm interested in the glazing theory, I'm off to Goodwood on Saturday, which should give me the opportunity to clean up the pads a bit. Perhaps you could let me know if you solve the problem. Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R500 CYA Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 Oh, and I quite appreciate I'm a cr@p driver! blush.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartG Posted March 20, 2001 Share Posted March 20, 2001 I don't think there's much difference between EBC greens and standard pads I hardly noticed any. If you really want more friction try Hawke metallic ones they're about 40 quid a set but boy do they bite. Edited by - stewartg on 20 Mar 2001 20:57:14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberts Wallet Posted March 20, 2001 Author Share Posted March 20, 2001 Okay, I'll ring JW tomorrow and order some pads. Are there any replacment discs that directly replace the original onesquestion.gifb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Let us know what happens. EBC Tubro Groove should fit but you will have to check with them first. Simon. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simos Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 I have greenstuff pads and they were great till I replaced my rear pads then the perennial rears locking up first returned. So I put the harder pads in the rears and now it's better. JW does a drilled direct replacement disk (£90ish last time I looked) which looks good and has no weight penalty unlike the big brake kit, however the std disks are £15 and are perfectly adequate on so light a car so guess which kind I have... Cheers, Simon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted March 21, 2001 Share Posted March 21, 2001 Red Dot disc with 6 grooves ordernr. XJ1810 are fantastic quality but a bit pricy at 116 £ a pair VAT inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delberts Wallet Posted March 21, 2001 Author Share Posted March 21, 2001 The pads are now on order. I've also had a call from some chap at (can't remamber the name now, but they do EBC stuff) and he has mentioned that he can get some Grooved, Drilled, or Drilled and grooved starting from 90 quid is up to 120 quid for the Drilled and grooved type to replace the standard discs. The name will come to me soon I'm sure Oh yes...Larkspeed and the discs are made by black diamond. it was only a mater of timesmile.gif Edited by - Gareth Harrold on 21 Mar 2001 22:57:58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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