2018 Trackday Safety Requirements (includes rollover bar content)

[Ian B]

James, would you be kind enough to reply (on here) to my questions in post #21 please? Thanks.

[Golf Juliet Tango]

I know you are trying to be helpful and look at the issue in a different way, so please accept my apologies for picking you up on the inconsistency of

 

looking to try before committing to considerable expense

which is £321 and

- invest in a couple of club owned trackday cars

At what price? (many tens of multiples of three hundred pounds) Stored where? Taken to and from the track by (method, person)? Maintained by (who and at whose expense)?

[Roadsport06]

It was the the rule on trackday bar for club trackdays that made my decision to update my order to include it. The implied safety had been backed up my evidence. A trackday bar is cheap enough, one trackday worth. Do a trackday elsewhere and if you like it and want to do club ones then fit the bar. If the rule on trackday bars has led to a person swapping to/including one in their new build that has then led to someone being safer in a smash then I see it as a real positive.

[L7 FST]

Bob (#50) makes some interesting points. I agree it's a relief that the revised list of safety measures doesn't add any new mandatory requirements alongside the legally troublesome and therefore persistent rule about what our roll bars should look like.

We're still free to drive on Club track days without gloves or visors, with remoulds or any condition of tyres we see fit, and to make our own private judgements about remaining brake pad life etc.  In the event of any consequent injuries sustained on a Club track day, I suppose a good lawyer could have a field day.  But common sense has prevailed.  We're stuck with a very specific kind of roll bar spec not because it's the most important of all safety issues, but because it was put into the rules ages ago and it's too tricky now to take it out.  A lesson has been learned, and thankfully we're not going to go down that random road in any new areas.

Sadly of course we must accept that the need to keep the roll bar rule may mean that some Club members will now never take their cars on track, especially if they believe a Club track day would have been the only safe environment for a novice.  But the picture Bob paints of non-Club track days doesn't chime with my own experience:  the vast majority of UK track day operators run a tight ship, with a strong emphasis on safety and good conduct.  I think Bob may have been watching too many race crash videos! In my 10 plus years of track days - maybe 70 in total - I've never actually once witnessed any contact between cars.  (On Sunday morning blats on the road, however......  )

MSV are always excellent (I had a fantastic time just two days ago at a sunny Snetterton, open pit lane with just 38 cars including 9 Caterhams, six hours of leisurely track time and only £99!).  Their 'novice only' days, which they regularly run at all their circuits, are highly recommended. They have very clear and strict safety rules, do not of course specify any particular type of roll bar, and are super-friendly.  Emma and others please note!  The Club has its own way of doing things, but there are alternatives..... Please don't be put off.  If you have a Caterham and never go on track you're missing something wonderful.

[Jonathan Kay]

But the picture Bob paints of non-Club track days doesn't chime with my own experience:  the vast majority of UK track day operators run a tight ship, with a strong emphasis on safety and good conduct.

I can't give an overview but it is certainly possible to have safe well-managed days with other organisers. It might be hard to find out in advance on your own but there's enough experience here to help sort it out. 

Jonathan

[Golf Juliet Tango]

rule about what our roll bars should look like.

 

It is nothing to do with what the rollover bars look like but wholly to do with how they are constructed and from what quality, dimensions and thickness of material.

I doubt anyone could produce 147 pages on their visual style.

[L7 FST]

Er... it's called 'design'  

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Check your wording.

 

[L7 FST]

Indeed: the Club's new wording precisely describes what the required track day roll bar looks like - 

i.e. "readily identifiable by one or two diagonal cross-members that brace the main hoop".   

 

[Golf Juliet Tango]

And please repeat the words preceding your extract.

Your words are about identifing the rollover bars required.

[L7 FST]

I understand splitting hairs - but 'identifing'?  Now you've really lost me....  

[Davesvroadsport]

FFS calm down you two - I know its a crappy day but really......

[L7 FST]

You're right, Dave.      Wet January Sunday syndrome has a lot to answer for! 

[Shortshift]

Catching up with a few posts from the last day or so where a reply may be appropriate or helpful:

 

Andrew E - you asked (#45) about the team that made up the Working Group and how we 'found' suitably qualified members.  The answer is really straighforward - we were fortunate to have a number of Management Team members with relevant professional experience and qualifications who were also also to nominate other members with the right mix of experience and skills to join the Group. 

I see that you have started a separate thread encouraging members to identify fields of professional competence; that could well have been an alternative source of expertise for us if your thread had been in place a few months ago!

 

Ian B - you asked a number of questions (#34) which I'm not sure are as important as you make out, but I'm happy to provide some further detail before drawing a line under this particular topic.

As the Management Team member who initiated the review, acted as project lead and chaired the Working Group meetings, I believe I'm well placed to provide reassurance about the thoroughness of the Club's approach throughout this programme, including our research into the background of this topic. 

It is true that there has indeed been a fair bit of speculation (and misreporting) about the circumstances and events from more than twenty years ago.  However, as part of our review we took time to make contact with Club officials from that era and we have benefited greatly from those discussions, as well as from the notes and formal meeting minutes that we gained access to.  As a result, I'm confident that we were accurately informed about the background as we turned our attention to the more important aspects of technical performance and assessing the Club's (and Club officials') exposure to liability. 

Before moving on, I'll just repeat from a post I made earlier in this thread and simply ask you to follow the Management Team’s lead in trusting the judgement and recommendations formed by the Working Group.

 

Steve (#49) - generally, our charge for second drivers at Club trackdays is only £25 (occasionally a little more for the premium circuits) so you're right to suggest that this might be a good way for a newcomer to dip a toe in the water - so long as they have a trusting friend in the form of a first driver!

 

L7 FST - I agree with your comments at (#49) about UK trackdays in general being safe and well run these days.  I'm glad, as well, that you appreciate the approach we've taken to reviewing the other safety related considerations, making distinctions between those items that are mandated (for whatever reason) and those where a recommendation suffices.

(Going off-topic for a moment, your remark about missing something wonderful if you don't go on track with your Caterham is also spot-on.  And our own Club days have their own appeal, of course, because we offer a Club ambience, a pre-event social, and other benefits at no extra charge such as our 'buddy system' and free instruction). 

 

Tidying-up and unsticking...  After nearly a week on here, with more than 3,000 'reads' and only around 55 or so posts (excluding my own inputs) I'm now "unsticking" this thread so that it can find its own level within the TechTalk forum. 

I've updated the TSRR document to include the requirement for video and other recording equipment to be securely attached to the car, as suggested by Ian (Wrightpayne) back in post #5.  The revised TSRR is linked here.

I've also added the April 2016 article on fitting a trackday rollover bar to the Trackday Documents area; a copy of the article is available here. 

And it's probably also the right time for me to stop posting responses, as well...

Many thanks to those who have contributed to this discussion and, of course, to the silent vast majority who have maybe read and followed the thread without feeling the need to submit a post.

James

[Markymark]

James

I have done two drafts and not sent either! Her is my third.We are in a world that is more H&S conscious and and increasingly litigious. It would be mad to go against the evidence to change the ruling with regard to track day rollbars and I totally get the stance taken by the club. Equally we need to acknowledge that it is not a trivial matter to change a rollbar to sample a  Club track day ( although if going on to do more this is more justifiable). IMHO it is not a stance that the club should take to say "well it is trivial and you should do it", because a key issue ( not necessarily the only one but a major one) is that a "try out" is by definition a one time event. To many of us; to change the rollbar only becomes financially justifiable (and possibly desirable) with multiple track day participation.

 That said, I believe we should/could be a bit more creative with this issue to allow other members (I declare I am in this group) to be able to improve our driving skills off road and to be more competent, safer when we go back onto the public roads and not least maximize our enjoyment of our cars by understanding them better (The cars that we individually own).  This need is not necessarily covered by a "track day" or  perhaps needs to be covered by a track day as currently defined by the club.

We can go to another organisations track day but we loose the camaraderie advice, guidance and expertise of more knowledgeable and skillful Seven drivers as most say the driving experience is unique. Many also might find this intimidating for a first time as there is comfort starting with like minded fellow club members. A simple solution maybe to arrange with a provider a " Caterham/Lotus 7" only day aimed at the novice. It will need to be done in a way that the liability is with the organizer and not back to the club for all the reasons well documented before.

In my experience so far there are a great many club members willing to give up their time to assists others. To have these "guiding hands" in attendance (maybe we can pay their traveling expenses or some other ex gratia payment - to be covered by participants) would be very desirable.

An alternative suggestion is to start a new class of day - perhaps a "Handling Day" not a track day -  aimed again at novices with a similar recipe as above but within the Club bailiwick. (Does the Dunsfold day need an FIA rollbar?) I am willing to volunteer my time to develop ideas in a working party if anybody sees these suggestions as noteworthy/desirable/ do-able etc. 

An alternative type of day, this could be competitive but not based on out right speed alone but say on three timed runs on a course where the winner has the smallest delta between these timed runs. Drivers say in the morning are skilled in consistent driving techniques with not the sole aim to just to go faster.

Please note I would be an enthusiastic amateur with regards to my knowledge and experience of this type of activity - as you may have guessed it I have never been on, or observed a track day!

Of course I don't know what I don't' know and therefore all this could have been visited before and all I will have achieved with this post is to improve my typing skills.... if not - such a "half way house" handling day could get more members to graduate onto/join track days which i believe is a stated aim for  the club.

Cheers

Mark Hutton

[TomB]

To many of us; to change the rollbar only becomes financially justifiable (and possibly desirable) with multiple track day participation.

I disagree, it provides additional roll over protection all the time its on the car.  Although a roll over on road is rare, they do happen.  Its a one off purchase for not that much more than most of our annual insurance premiums.  

I know of plenty 7s who have a small hand held fire extinguisher, and some with a plumbed in system.  I view this as another 'insurance' policy this time against fire, and again although rare, for the price I consider such a 'policy' worth taking out.  

 

[Ian B]

Mark, great post and suggestions 

James, thanks for your post #64 but all I was asking in post #34 was;

Therefore can you confirm that all the legal and H&S advice taken into account by the MT is:

1. in written form
2. from independent sources not connected with the Club
3. held by the Club's registered office for future reference and inspection if required
4. from legally accountable sources with the appropriate PI insurances

In my time on the MT there were occasions when "legal advice" was verbally given to the MT that turned out to be out of context and not relevant to the subject being discussed and decided upon, despite appearing to be "authoritative" at the time.

As this is clearly an important subject, I am merely asking you to confirm the above in relation to your statement int he LF article:

advice provided to the MT about the importance oft he precedence created by the 1996 rule. This effectively placed the Club and its officers at risk of legal liability claims if an incident were to occur where the performance of a newly approved rollover bar is called into question - unless objective data is available to confirm equivalent, or superior, levels of protection tot he already-approved trackday variants.

Given the seriousness of this issue, the previous irrelevant advice in other matters, and the potential perceived risk that you have mentioned, I'm simply trying to get your confirmation that an "advice" on this item was in the form stated in the questions above, that's all.

[Ian B]

James, could you please answer the questions in my post above? Thanks, Ian

[Ian B]

James, could you please answer the questions in my post above? Thanks, Ian

[Englishmaninwales]

See #64 - James states that he is not making any further comments.

Malcolm

[Ian B]

Ah yes, the well trodden path of certain MT members ignoring questions when they are too difficult to answer, or there has been a poor decision or course of action taken.

James has had ample opportunity to clarify the information requested but has chosen to ignore the questions, which is disappointing.

As he won't answer, I believe I can answer the questions for him:

Was the "legal and H&S advice" taken into account by the MT:

1. in written form. -- Probably NOT at least in the case of the Legal advice.
2. from independent sources not connected with the Club. -- NOT in the case of the "legal" advice.
3. held by the Club's registered office for future reference and inspection if required. -- NOT in the case of the "legal advice" 
4. from legally accountable sources with the appropriate PI insurances. -- NOT in the case of the "legal advice.

A Director of the Club has stated that the whole matter of whether any relaxation of the roll bar rules can be considered is irrelevant due to "legal and H&S advice" confirming that the Directors could be liable IF an incident occurred (where it was proven that any outcome was exacerbated by having a non "FIA" bar).

Unfortunately that "legal advice" was not from a professional legal expert in this field; indeed it was from a person who has previously provided inappropriate "legal advice" to the MT. I would suggest basing such a significant decision on unqualified, and unrecorded, "advice" is not appropriate or in the best interests of the Club (or Directors).

The result of the roll bar decision doesn't affect me, but I am very disappointed at the apparent tergiversating replies when seeking to get to the truth behind the decision 

[Gnockoff]

For the benefit of anyone else who had never seen the word ‘tergiversating’ before. Tergiversate means to equivocate using subterfuge, or to obfuscate in a deliberate manner, or to evade. 

[Tazio]

Is it just me or is Ian B just being a bit of an arrogant tit? ...get off your high horse and move on.

[garybee]

 

For the benefit of anyone else who had never seen the word ‘tergiversating’ before. Tergiversate means to equivocate using subterfuge, or to obfuscate in a deliberate manner, or to evade.

Ha ha, I had thought that was a 'mistype'.

On the outcome...It has been explicitly stated that the trackday bar will remain as the minimum requirement as the standard bar is less strong and no lowering of safety standards would be accepted by the investigating team.  Surely nobody actually believed that the standard bar was going to be stronger than the trackday bar?  In which case this process could come across as an expensive and time consuming way of justifying an already entrenched position.  I can certainly see how this explanation of the outcome would frustrate club members which is what we're seeing.  

[Comp Sec]

Gary,

Whilst not being on the working group, I am on the MT, and I can advise that there has been for a long time the strongly held belief / argument that the modern standard roll bar was significantly stronger than the original version and that the modern standard roll bar was at least as strong as the 1996 style trackday bar.

Hence why after great debate and discussion that the MT endorsed the request for the study to be completed using the 1996 style trackday bar as the minimum standard in line with the guidance we have been given.