New Apollo wheels-problem with balancing

[glasgow]

Any one please had issues with balancing Apollo wheels?

New wheels and tyres arrived yesterday. Four caterham apollo 13x6" wheels and R888R 13x60x185 front and 205x60x13 rear. All bought from Demon tweek and tyres were fitted and balanced by them. I noticed that all the wheels got 50 weight balance on the inside rim (my understanding 50 is the max allowed weight balance)

Put them on and went for a drive and I could see the front wheels not rolling smooth and I can  feel very minor vibration at steering wheels.

Took the car today to kwickfit to check balance and the reading was high (85, 75, 55) and you can visually see non smooth rotation. I asked them to rebalance the wheel but they could only do static balance.

Is this a known issue with apollo wheels and I should just live with it? Should I return them back? will demon tweet take them back after fitting, driving for a day and rebalncing?

Thank you for your thoughts

Ahmed

[glasgow]

And yes I did use torque wrench 75nm and didn't over-tightened the nuts. 

[Graham King]

Glasgow, I have exactly same as you, but R888 not R888R. Had no trouble balancing mine and no noticeable vibration, I haven't watched on the machine though. Tbh I'm not sure I'd use Kwikfit to do it. I use a local garage, I'm no expert but I know my garage have stopped and rotated and refitted tyre if they've thought the weights were getting too much. 

Graham

 

[glasgow]

Thank you Graham but we didn't think the problem was due to the tyres. They used what looked like a "probe" or a ruler that when you rotate the wheel you can see the inside edge of the wheel getting closer to the fixed end of the probe when the wheel is rotated half circle

[JNC]

Worth a check !! are your wheels machined where the Centre cap goes ?. On mine they are not ! they are the ten spoke 15' wheels. My local chap balanced them backwards  so the machined part at the back of the wheel fitted on the cone and used a special rubber cup on the front of the wheel to hold it while balancing took place it worked a treat.  

[glasgow]

I am not sure about machined. But I saw the guys having a close look at the center of the wheel then they applied the rubber cup.

[SM25T]

When I had new Toyo tyres fitted a couple of years ago ... they tried balancing them at 18psi. They kept adding weights .... but with no effect. They found the tyre sidewalls were flexing at such a low pressure. Increased pressure to 30psi and started again. Balanced easily with few weights. Reduced pressure back to 18psi for driving. All good.

[Mark w]

I've had a couple of sets of ZZRs on mine and no problem balancing although the rears have some witness marks where they initially rubbed on the de Dion ears .

[ScottR400D]

My business used to involve the sale of tyre changers and wheel balancers amongst other things. Retired now but still have a modern changer and balancer in my garage. That's just background. 

When I built my R400 last year, I rebalanced the 4 Apollo wheels (CR500) and the spare set of the same that are fitted with ZZRs. All 8 wheels had significant imbalance  as received. I back coned them in the centre hole because that's how they appear to be located on the hub, not by the nuts with loose seats. After balancing, I slackened the clamp, rotated the wheel 1/2 a turn and clamped again. No significant change, which indicates an accurate mounting on the centre hole  

They're all fine on the car, no trace of vibration. There was a little run out on the rim but nothing significant.  From memory there were a couple of biggish weights (50gish) but some were very small. 

In conclusion, I would say they need to be back coned, not reverse mounted or flange plate but need to be very clean on the back of the wheel centre, as does the face of the balancer spindle. 

I won't criticise KF but my balancer is better than most of the ones they have, unless things have changed recently, and in better condition, though to be fair they use theirs more than I do mine!

I would suggest you seek out an independent with a good machine that he knows how to use.  

 

[glasgow]

But it is unlikely that the fault is in both kwickfit and demon tweak. I'm saying this because we ended up putting nearly similar weight in nearly the same place. Of course when the reading showed high figures they only put 50 and did static (ie only the inside) of the wheels.

 

I can understand the tyres can come slightly of balance, but the wheel itself should spin smoothly without wobble, correct?

[ScottR400D]

The wheels should be pretty straight yes. I put one of my spares on the balancer last night, it spins reasonably true. I have a video of it but not sure if I can post it. 

Not sure what you mean by 'static (ie only on the inside)'. a static balance is carried out with the weight on the centre line. As implied it does not dynamically balance the wheel, ie across the width and if that imbalance is still there you'll get a lot of vibration/wobble/shimmy coming through especially on a Caterham.

These wheels should only have weights on the inside in any case, see below. This is a front but needed a 45g and a 20g. The other front had 2 x 20g.

Incidentally, when I spun this front it was showing about 15g imbalance. Since I balanced to zero when new, I've done a trackday on them and there is pick up and wear so that's well within an acceptable level and confirms that using a back cone on the centre hole is the correct way to mount. 

So, in answer to your original question, this isn't typical of the Apollo wheel IMO and you shouldn't live with it.

I would suggest you get the tyres off and spin the wheels to see how balanced and true they are. If they aren't then they are at fault, if they are it's the tyres or something to do with the fitment. They are all seated on the rims well aren't they

 

[cr500dom]

Where is the paint dot on the sidewall in relation to the valve ?

Most people  including most tyre fitters, dont realise that this corresponds to the heavy spot on the tyre.

This should be placed opposite the valve as a starting point, as the 2 help to cancel each other out, and normally means you need less weight to balance the over all assembly.

It be tempted to break the beads, reseat the tyre with plenty of soap, paying attention to where this mark is, then rebalance as Scott has said with 30-35psi in the tyres.

HTH

Dom

[Jonathan Kay]

Where is the paint dot on the sidewall in relation to the valve ? Most people  including most tyre fitters, dont realise that this corresponds to the heavy spot on the tyre.

Always interesting hearing from experts.

Is each tyre checked at the factory and the spot applied, or is it known where it will be from the design?

Thanks

Jonathan

[ScottR400D]

I'm not sure about that but I think they know where it will be because it's where the breaker plies overlap at the base of the tread. If you look inside the tyre you'll see the bulge.

 

 

[Jonathan Kay]

Thanks

Jonathan

PS: It reminded me of a story I was brought up on: pistons and cylinder bores being measured and matched to each other because it was easier and cheaper than accurate manufacturing. But I've never checked the history... 

[glasgow]

The word "static" it was my first time to hear about it yesterday, the guy told me it means they only measure the inside balance (or at least that what I understood from him). Thank you Scott for your explanation.

 

As for the weight placement, demon tweek weight as well as Kwickfit they both sit 3-5mm away from the inner rim.

 

Interesting to know about the paint dot. Just checked mine, none of them is actually opposite the valve! For general information if this paint dot is not seen (old tyre) can you tell the correct place of the heavy spot without removing the tyre and looking inside it?

[Geoff Brown]

You can get induced 'wobble' if the weights are not set in the correct position on the inside of the wheel due to the fact that the weights will fractionally contact the brake caliper during rotation.

I learnt from that when it happened on my last car with standard brakes. The situation can be worse with big front brakes & care must be taken as to where the weights are situated both front & rear.

[glasgow]

These wheels should only have weights on the inside in any case, - See more at: http://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/new-apollo-wheels-problem-balancing#sthash.ByQOuseF.dpuf

 

 

Scott, when I said "inside" I meant the "inside part of the INSIDE surface of the wheel"  ie the closer to the car as opposed to the "outside" which I meant "the outside part of the INSIDE surface of the wheels". I do understand no weight will be on the outside surface of the wheels. In you pic there are two weight, 45g on the outside and 20 on the inside. In my case the measurements were 75 and 85 on the dynamic and about 50 on the static so they put 50g on the inside then the static reading showed "ok", they did this for the four wheels and ended up showing "Ok" for static for the 4 wheels but you can still visually see they don't spin straight.

[nickh7]

I had it on 048 this year , they were a pig to balance in the end we had to keep taking the tyre off the rims and moving them round till they balanced .

were they fresh tyres ?  That was thought to be the issue behind mine they had stood for a couple of years and this contributed to the issue

 

 

[glasgow]

Mine are fresh wheels and tyres. Did you end up balancing rhem dynamic (in and out) or only static? Did you visually see wheels spinnig "asymetrical"? 

[Foggy]

I've just been through this with a new set of R888's. 

Three of the tyre's balanced ok but I had to stop the tyre fitter attempting to put 75g of weights on the fourth!!  As cr500dom says, when the tyre was deflated and the dot moved to opposite the valve it zeroed out at 20g.

 

[IanJ]

The centre holes in my 8-spokes [corrected wheel type] aren't machined centrally.  So when they were balanced using a cone through the centre hole they felt horrible on the car.  They were re-checked using a stud plate which revealed a significant imbalance.  They were then re-balanced on the stud-plate and now feel fine on the car.

[glasgow]

Ian, I am not sure if mine are machined or not. Mine are 13" silver (not  the black diamond cut). Are yours the same?

 

So if mine are not machined, the rubber cone should not applied then and it should be the stud-plate, correct?

Bloody hell, why nothing is straight forward with the Seven   

[IanJ]

Strictly speaking I'm not 100% sure mine are actually "machined" either.

They are black 13x6".  Every time they have been balanced on the centre cone the car has been practically unusable because of vibration.  Everytime they have been balanced on a stud plate they have been fine.  That's with 3 different sets of A048Rs and the valves/overlap correctly aligned by Adams and Page.

[ScottR400D]

Just to give my opinion on some of the points raised!

A static balance cancels out imbalances radially, ie across the diameter of the wheel. A dynamic balance cancels out any imbalance across the width of the wheel. I used to have a little rig to demonstrate the difference. It was a small plastic wheel on a bearing on the end of a handle so you could hold the handle in one hand and spin the wheel.

Around its circumference where a series of holes, drilled axially. If you pushed a small weight into one of these holes and spun the wheel it would be all over the place. If you put another weight in the same side, directly opposite, the wheel would spin freely and smoothly.

if you then moved one of these weights to the other side of the wheel, still diametrically opposite but axially on a different plane you would get a significant wobble. Not as bad as with only one weight, but certainly not good! That element is what a dynamic balance removes.

I hope that's understandable!

As for the brake caliper thing, that can happen but unless you're using a steel weight the weight would soon wear off. In any case, I haven't seen an issue on the front wheels with Apollos. On the rear of my car the weights need to be about 40mm into the rim (8") to clear the rear calliper. Other than that there shouldn't be an issue.

As for the correct way of mounting that should always be trying to mimic the way the wheel is mounted on the car. If it locates on the centre hole then it should be coned. If it locates on the studs, use a flange plate. Many tyre shops will try to use cones because they're quicker and cheaper to use. You need a wide range of flanges and they're not cheap! A few different sized cones costs a lot less and is near enough most of the time.

Having said that, and based on my experience with my Apollos, they locate on the machined surface in the rear of the centre hole and that's why I back cone them. Mine are the black/diamond cut, the silver may be different. 

I would still suggest going back to getting the tyres off, checking the rims and going from there, with all the advice on this thread.

Hope it goes well.