VX Sump Removal

[John Downard]

I new my suspension was sagging (& non adjustable) with a very low ride height and now the inevitable has occurred.  Returning to the right side of the road after an aggressive overtake, under heavy breaking induced dive the sump had a catastrophic impact with an old school cast iron cats eye.

It looks as if the Caterham alloy sump on the VX XE engine should be removable without taking the engine out, however with all the allen bolts removed, including the two large ones into the bell housing, it doesn't want to split.  I have previously had the engine out and separated the gearbox but can't remember if the two bell housing holes had locating sleeves (effectively dowels)?

Question: will the sump come off in situ? Does it drop straight down or does it have to come forward first to clear any locating dowels?

Any thoughts/assistance would be gratefully received.

[Keith_T]

My 8v sump was removed (and repaired) by Millwood with engine in situ.  Can't tell you how they did it.

We also had problems with cat's eyes.  Sorted with new shocks and springs.

[Jonathan Kay]

How many bolts have you removed so far?

Jonathan

[ECR]

Yes it will come off in situ

No there aren't any locating dowels

You should have removed 14 M6 bolts (this includes the 2 long ones at the rear.

[Tazio]

There's one on ebay for sale at the moment......but at £400.....

[alan c]

Not sure about the number of bolts but in addition to all the vertical bolts there are two horizontal ones going into bell housing. No dowels should pull apart fairly easily once all the bolts are out.

You will need two new gaskets to put it all back and unless it's very new a foam baffle as well. Putting it all back is a bit of a juggle, use four lengths of suitably sized stud to locate it all loosely then add the other bolts and finally replace studs with last four bolts and it's easier.

[ECR]

Yes, Alan's correct, if you haven't undone the 2 M10 bolts from the bell housing you'll never shift it.

[John Downard]

Eeek!! £400... I'm hoping its repairable.  On that topic, is it aluminum or magnesium, I assume the former and TiG weldable with appropriate filler material, 4043 or 4047 seems to be the concensus. Any views, experience and success stories?

[Keith_T]

Re the £400 sump on Ebay,  QED offer a cast wet sump at £155 with a baffle plate at £24.

[alan c]

Does anyone know if the baffle from QED will fit/work in the Caterham wet sump? Would like to get rid of the foam if I can

[Jonathan Kay]

Is it off yet?

Jonathan

[F355GTS]

John

 

To clarify in addition to the bolts around the edge and the two into the bellhousing there are 2 x long bolts that are just in front of the rear edge of the sump that Roger refers to. When I removed mine the gasket seemed non standard with metal anti crush spacers which are easy to lose! I couldn;t see a soure fo supply for the gasket (Caterham no longer sell)

[ECR]

I use silicone on my dry sump (not too much, you don't want it in the oil- there's an anaerobic flange sealant, loctite 574 which avoids this possibility), and I don't see why you can't do the same on a wet sump.

[Mavic82]

The gaskets are easy to source from a motor factors or from Vauxhall. Just as for parts from a 1989 mark 2 Astra GTE 16v. The OE gasket is a sort of black rubberised plastic with small round metal inserts to ensure the gasket is not squashed to much when you tighten it all back up.

the dry sump as Roger says is simpler as you have no gasket. If I recall I don't think you can do this with the wet sump as the windage tray might hit the crank and I think the oil pick up would sit hard on the bottom of the sump without the spacing of the two gaskets. Both can be overcome with some mods though if you wanted to try.

as others have said remove all the bolts in to the block, the two long ones at the back near the bell housing, two at the front that go in to the oil pump and the two big bolts that go in to the bell housing.

you may need to give it a tap or lever it a bit, the gaskets stick. Once removed let it drain for 24 hrs. It's a pig to put back with oil still dripping. The oil pick up, windage tray and double gaskets are a faff as the are all tangled together.

[John Downard]

Thanks for the helpful comments, it's off and after inspection doesn't look easily/safely repairable, gaping 3" vertical crack spreading as a hairline for a further 4" along the base. The side wall has actually distorted and the first M6 bolt had sheared, it would need clamping up prior to welding, any views?

    

[alan c]

 I am not an expert by any means but afraid to say that does not look to good to me. Sure it can be welded but will it be true and square enough to go back on the block? Guess all you can do is take it along to a welder and see what he has to say. If you want some measurements taken on a good one let me know, right now my engine is broken down into all its parts for a rebuild so easy to measure the sump.

Did you get the sheared bolt out of the block ok?

[Julian H]

As Thursday night I am sorry I missed your thread  but pleased its all coming back together. I guess this is a wake up call and you need to treat yourself to something to overcome your saggy front end before it happens again.

 

[SM25T]

Are we looking at the foam sponge in the bottom of the sump in the photo ? I hope it isn't as black and crunchy as it looks ! With an impact that big, you would do well to check your engine mounts are Ok too.

[Paul Deslandes]

You really need to remount the sump on an upturned Vx block to act as a jig while it's being welded.  You could try Steve at SBD in Surbiton (near Kingston) and see if he has one you could borrow, although I wouldn't hold out too much hope.  Maybe someone on here has one otherwise.  SBD has the gaskets (but not the foam baffle) so that might be a way in.  Don't touch gaskets that don't have the metal pellets as they are rubbish.

Before welding, I think you need to clamp that gap shut, not just fill it, otherwise the face may not be flat enough and very likely the holes won't line up.

Definitely replace the sump foam baffle at every opportunity (annually) as modern oils destroy them in very short order and they clog or break up - not good in either case.

Have a search on here for Vx C20XE oil lubrication mods while you've got the sump off as they can help with reducing  oil surge on fast corners.

Paul

[John Downard]

Via a friend in the AWD/LandRover community I was recommended an artisan aluminum welder.  After thorough cleaning, grinding out of cracks (known & discovered!), clamping up longitudinally & laterally, heating up the whole casting, several TIG beads were laid (inside and out).  The result is good and perfectly flat across the mating face.  The sheared M6 screw came out easily enough, and it's all back together now. I needed to do an oil change anyway!

 

[alan c]

Hi - glad to hear you have been able to repair it. I don't know if it will work but I am going to look hard at using the QED baffle in my car instead of the dreaded foam when my engine goes back together. Will post if it works.

[John Downard]

 

I'll be interested how you get on with the QED plate, it might need their pick up pipe also(?)

[Paul McKenzie]

Have you sorted your (sagging) suspension and ride height?  That would seem to be the problem. What year is your VX, as there was a time (1996) when Caterham decided to soften the suspension to make the car more 'user-friendly', and it ruined the setup, but it's easily resolved with different springs and adjustable collars, a change of front arb and installation of a rear arb.

[John Downard]

Paul, it's a 1995 HPC that has been wide tracked by the previous owner (extender nuts on track rod and damper top mount).  The top mount is shared with the through bolt of the top wishbone, from what I have seen later cars have a separate suspension mount slightly higher up with a correspondingly longer eye-to-eye- length.  The springs seem very short and almost coil bound under static load.  The presumably original Bilsteins (I believe) have only crudely adjustable spring seats which are already on the highest position and the damper travel looks minimal before the bump stop comes into play.  I don't know what rating the springs are, I believe paint colour should be an indicator(?), they are clearly blue but there is a trace of yellow underneath.  You can see in the second photo that the bottom wishbone is not level.  If a suitable spring rate could be figured out I was wondering whether longer (free length) springs using the lower spring seats could be used to achieve a more suitable ride height.  Clearly new coil-over units would be the best bet, particularl as these have no damping adjustment either. All constructive views welcomed.

[Paul McKenzie]

Hi John,

The main issue, as I see it, with your present set-up is the lack of adjustable spring seats, so I think the first item on your shopping list (if you are going to persevere with the existing dampers) should be spring seats and sleeves for all 4 corners -without those you can do nothing.

My car is a '96 HPC which still had the same dual purpose top mount (and I guess the same length dampers) but suffered from the soggy suspension set-up that CC introduced in '96. It is also narrow track and remains that way. My main issue with the original setup was a huge amount of roll which is why I fitted stronger springs and front ARB and put a rear ARB on as well-I think you will already have both those ARB's on your car.

So my approach in your car would be adjusters set on a lower spring mount and longer (and stronger) springs.

I actually use 7" 300LB 1.875" springs on the front of mine with the spring seats set on the next to lowest circlip groove and they seem to work well as the VX is a heavy old boy as you know. However you are wide track which will affect the spring rate, so I don't know which way you'd go there, but again I might be tempted to give the 300's a shot as a pair of springs is only £30 or so. 

I think you should be OK with what you've got on the back once you have the adjusters on as your rear springs should be 'pre-soggy' setup.

Hope that helps