Understanding towing weights?

[Silverback]

Evening all...

Have taken delivery of my new daily drive - A Skoda Yeti 4x4 (Diesel 140bhp) and am getting a towbar fitted soon.

I have never understood the braked/unbraked towing weights but intend to hopefully tow my R400 using the Yeti, likely using a Brian James A-Max or similar.

Is this possible?

Matthew

[paul richards]

Yes

[shn7]

I think the question(s) should be, is this within design limit for the Yeti and is it legal rather than is it possible.

Also you need to consider if are you licensed to do so given changes to driving license categories over the last 15+ years.

Not wishing to make things harder but the above are factors needing consideration.

[7 wonders of the world]

Arh, just to add more confusion now I read somewhere a few weeks ago that the normal limits we came to understand have now changed and you may only tow a trailer plated at no more that the max towing weight of your car - even if the trailer is empty.

 

So ie max towing weight say 1800kg means you cannot tow a trailer plated at 2600kg even in an unladen state........

seems madness to me - I'll try to dig the article out and post a linky

[Silverback]

Licence is good = I am old

So kerbweight of the Yeti is 1535kg, Max towing weight is listed as 2000kg (which is for a braked trailer)...so I think I should be OK for a Brian James A-Max plus the R400?

 

[CharlesElliott]

So yes, the actual weight of trailer + car will be < max towing weight, but the law looks at plated weight rather than actual weight. I'm pretty sure it will be OK, but what's the plated weight on your A-Max?

[Nillbymouth]

To be fully legal with your Yeti you need the plated weight to be no more than 2000kg. Not sure where or how but you can get trailers re-plated. Be aware but the are lot of stories in the horse community of police checking up on this so probably worth doing.

[Dave McCulloch]

Where does it actually state that it's plated weight that the car has to be rated to tow?  I googled this yesterday and the .gov.uk website makes no mention of plated weight.  

If you followed the same logic we should all get 3 points and a fine for driving a car with a top speed higher than 70mph......

Dave

[CharlesElliott]

Legally it comes down to the maximum train weight plated on the car. 

Alternatively the vehicle’s gross train weight may be listed on the vehicle identification number (VIN) plate on the car. This is normally under the bonnet or inside the driver’s door.

The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.

If your VIN plate doesn’t list a train weight, you should not use your vehicle for towing.

The reference to 'fully loaded trailer' is where the plated weight comes in. The plated weight is on a plate on the trailer :-). Bit like a chassis plate.

[Paul Deslandes]

You can get the trailer down plated by the manufacturer but you must stay within the limits of the new plate 'rating'.  I guess if you had two tow vehicles of different capacity, you could swap the plate accordingly. Not sure why you'd want to do so unless you were hauling horses, sometimes with one rather than two-up and wanted to use a smaller vehicle.

A couple of links, neither of which are totally clear, but may help with terminology!

http://www.ukdrivers.com/Trailer_towing.asp

http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/towing_weights_law.htm

[anthonym]

ok so from here:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=vin+plate+codes&id=4117C2AA201DB675ACA9ED5F03410EEADCE4764D&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=4117C2AA201DB675ACA9ED5F03410EEADCE4764D&selectedIndex=0

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=vin+plate+codes&id=4117C2AA201DB675ACA9ED5F03410EEADCE4764D&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=4117C2AA201DB675ACA9ED5F03410EEADCE4764D&selectedIndex=0

I worked out that my Mark 2 Ford Mondeo's weights are:

2000 Gross Vehicle Mass

3500 Gross Towed Mass

1030 Max Front axle loading

1030 Mac Rear axle loading

So, my guess is that Gross Towed Mass is the gross train weight, not least as 3500 kg is vastly in excess of the approved towing weight of 1500kg (itself one of the reasons for having the car because so many others are only 1250kg).

3,500 being notable as the starting weight for the requirement for a tachograph where commercial work is involved.

The car's Gross weight is 2,000 kg and I know from elsewhere that the towing weight is 1,500 kg so there's the addition of the two arriving at the Gross Towed Mass / Train Weight. The car does not weigh 2,000 kg, so that must be the max weight allowed fully loaded, add the trailer max weight 1,500 and overall weight is 3,500. 

All seems to make sense when the word "gross" is read as "fully loaded".

I'll check it all next time I see a free weighbridge. (Last one was in Norway).

and from some specs on the trailer being a BJ Minno Shuttle

Technical Specifications 
• Gross capacity 1380Kg 
• Load capacity 800Kg 
• Load bed length 11ft (3.0m) 
• Load bed width 5ft 5ins (1.65m) 
• Overall trailer length 15ft (4.57m) 
• Overall trailer width 6ft 8ins (2.03m) 
• Overall height 5ft 9ins (1.75m) 
• Internal height 4ft 7ins (1.40m) 

so, as I recall the unladen weight is 750kg, plus one Seven say 500 kg, that's 1250kg, plus car content and wheels on the rack can amount to 1380 - 1250=130kg. That doesn't sound untoward and leaves 1500-1380 = 120kg latitude as compared the max towing weight; I'm ok with that.

Nose weight is 75kg (after dropping the hitch ball 50mm).

Braked versus unbraked weights:

A trailer without brakes relies on the brakes of the tow car and so has to be much lighter, examples being sailing dinghy trailers and box trailers. Caravans usually are not braked (edit: is that right?) and present more challenging towing experiences.

A trailer with brakes, relies on its own brakes to reduce speed and as such can be MUCH heavier. 

I wouldn't relish towing a Seven using an unbraked trailer or come to that, one without 4 wheels (twin axle); though doubtless both are perfectly feasible and for local trips around GB just fine with a suitably heavy duty tow car.

Anthony

[anthonym]

del duplicate

[7 wonders of the world]

Anything that is towed over 750kg and/or with more than 1 axle must have brakes that operate on all the wheels.

 

[michaeljclark]

So I'm glad that this has come up as I was going to ask the same question.

So with the info gleaned for above.

The new Jag XF Sportbrake I've got on order has the following spec:
Kerb Weight:   1880Kg
Gross Weight: 2440Kg
Braked Trailer:1850Kg
Unbraked:         750Kg (I'm assuming that wih an SV+fluids coming in @ 600KG that an unbraked trailer is out of the question weight wise)

My license has a "B" entitlement
Quoting DVLA:

You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) with up to 8 passenger seats (with a trailer up to 750kg).You can also tow heavier trailers if the total weight of vehicle and trailer isn’t more than 3,500kg.

So am I right in thinking that in order to tow my SV, I'm going to need to beg/borrow:

A braked trailer capable of carrying the SV that has a plate rating of no more than 1850Kg (as per the XF Spec)

The weight of the trailer and the SV must not weigh more that 1850Kg.

The car+passengers+cargo AND trailer+SV needs to come in under 3500Kg.

Thanks

Mike

[mikecocker]

There is obvious confusion over these weight limits. It is important to realise that with vehicles/ trailers used on the road all limitations, whether it it your ability to tow with your licence or driving an HGV over a weak bridge, use the gross weight. That means it's manufacturer designed maximum weight, not how much it weighs in your particular case. If you have a trailer which is allowed to carry a load of 1000 kgs and the trailer weighs 400 kgs then the gross weight is 1400 kgs. This will be marked on the trailer. You can't use it with a 600 kg Caterham and think its only 1000 kgs, its still 1400 kgs gross. That's the way things are.

In the above case, using a B licence with a max gross of 3500 kgs, you are allowed to tow 3500 - 2440 = 1060kgs. More than this and you'll need a B+E category. 

[ballisticsupersport]

I Wish I'd read this post a couple of days ago....

I rented a trailer yesterday to tow the caterham (s3) to a track day - talked to two trailer dealers, told them the car (VW golf), they told me the max towing weight was 1400Kg and because their trailers weighed less than 3/4 tonne I was fine to tow - clearly this isn't the case as the trailer gross weight was around 2000Kg...

That said, I loaded the trailer properly and the golf did brilliantly, even when a lorry decided it wanted my lane whilst I was along side! That manouver in my old defender would have resulted in a lot more drama...even without a trailer!

But if that's what the law states, then I'll have to find a company that rents trailers with a GW less than 1400Kg, suspect I'll be out of luck.

Glad I wasn't stopped.

Tom

 

[Silverback]

It does seem a crazy situation, I will make sure I check the plated gross weight of the trailer, but the 2000KG for the Yeti should give me more options...

Tom - silly question but did you find it easy to do as a one man job? I have a couple of trailered trips to make in May and I will be on my own for all of them...

Thanks,

Matthew

[ballisticsupersport]

Hi Matthew,

I was worried about doing everything by myself as I've very little experience with trailers and nothing the size of a car transporter.

I have to say it was a breeze! the only difficult bit was manouvering the trailer on my drive - I had to unhitch to turn around and could have used a bit more muscle to push the (empty) trailer. I just tried to make sure that I didn't get myself in any situations I didn't have the talent to get out of

The only reversing I had to do was in a straight line and I think the twin axle makes this a lot easier than some of the small trailers I've towed in the past. The trailer I had was a Brian James twin axle with 13' bed.

It took me a while to figure out how to tie the car down with the selection of ratchet straps the hire company gave me and I wasn't overly happy with the result but the car didn't move at all in 150+ miles.

One thing I would say if you're going to hire a trailer is to make sure you've got a 7 to 13 pin adapter - your new car will probably have 13 pin electrics, older trailers often have the 7pin plug...

Are you going to buy a trailer? if so it would be good to hear what you decide to get as this is probably what I'll end up having to do.

cheers

Tom

 

[Silverback]

Hi Tom,

I plan to hire the first couple of times. I actually had 7pin electrics fitted as I thought I would be trailering more than anything else only to find the bike rack I bought uses 13 pin (hence an adapter needed!) 

Matthew

[bigdog]

Has there been a problem in the UK of trailers collapsing under load? Or are the numpties in charge simply looking for yet another way to enhance HRM's coffers by creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist?

I have always wondered if there were a secret finishing school hidden inside a mountain for would be politicians called the Rube Goldberg political school of problem solving. Where the school motto is "How to gain power over the commoners through complex solutions for nonexistent problems"

 

[IanJ]

It amazes me that something which in principle should in be so straightforward to define can be open to so many different interpretations.  Especially when the consequences of a misunderstanding could be so significant in the event of an accident.

Anyway, to quote the GOV.UK page in full https://www.gov.uk/towing-with-car/car-towing-weight-and-width-limits

Most cars have a maximum weight they can tow. It’s usually listed in the handbook or specification sheet.

Alternatively the vehicle’s gross train weight may be listed on the vehicle identification number (VIN) plate on the car. This is normally under the bonnet or inside the driver’s door.

The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.

If your VIN plate doesn’t list a train weight, you should not use your vehicle for towing.

My car has a maximun towing capacity of 1200kg defined in the vehicle handbook.  So my interpretation is that I am OK to tow a loaded trailer which does not weigh more than 1200kg.

The maximum plated weight for the trailer is 1380kg.  When I spoke to the trailer manufacturer (Brian James) about this and asked them to downplate it, I was told that it was only necessary if the car/trailer combination was going to be used for commercial towing.

I don't want to take any chances and so I'm thinking that I should speak to them again and insist that they downplate the trailer for me, even if they advise that it is not technically required...

[Paul Deslandes]

This issue crops up on every forum concerned with towing including cars (here), horses, boats and caravans.  It must be possible for the authorities to make a definition clearer than it is at the moment.  As well as the rules regrading vehicle weights, there's the added complication of older drivers (like me) who can drive a wide range of towing vehicle until we're 70 and those who have passed their driving test in more recent years and are significantly more restricted.

I suspect that tightening the rules has helped.  I remember years ago when driving both in the UK and in Europe, an incredible number of non-commercial  trailers, especially caravans, that had either failed to stop or jack-knifed under heavy braking.  I haven't seen one of these for a while - or maybe I should get out more!

This site gives towing weights for almost every car and 4X4.

Paul