Rampmonkey Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 Right Club, I'm clueless with electrics. I'll give the symptoms, you be the doctors. Car Spec - 1.8 Vx OHC, Carbs. 2000 Reg classic. FRA252 Alternator. Normal 12v battery. Push button start + keys. External isolator. 1. Went to start car this afternoon after a couple of weeks sat idle. Remote garage, no electric. Damp as you like, not ideal for long term storage! Turn key, reluctant turn over but doesn't fire. Repeated attempts lead to that really annoying slow death. You know the thing. Decision to jump start met with success. Toddle off on a bit of a drive to 'feed some life back into the battery'. No issues, charge light out, running sweet! One happy monkey. 20 mins later, get to petrol station, decide to fill up. 2. After filling up, go to start car. Turn key, fuel pump kicks in, ignition charge light on as normal. Push start button. Click from starter motor and all goes dead. Turn key to off, back to on and nothing. Not a squeak. Not a titter. 3. Happens a rather gracious ex-westfield owner is filling up at the pump next to me and spots my rather obvious '....oh boobs, I've an electrical snag..' face. Offers a jump start. 4. Car jump starts perfectly. Everything running beautifully. Decide to make a 'one flight only' return to base. Upon return to the garage, I leave the car running for a good thirty minutes to try and mitigate a duff battery scenario. 5. Turn of ignition, attempt restart. Return to step 2. Get the idea? So what have I tried.....? Earths = ALL good IAW build manual. Battery = Good health. Volt and condition checked. Ok, now over to you. It's sunday tomorrow and I'm content to go popping stuff into bits, re-wiring and wot not. But remember this: Rampmonkey is an electrics mong. I WILL probably electrocute myself at some point. Edited by - rampmonkey on 23 Jun 2013 20:43:57 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 When you say battery voltage and condition checked, what voltages did you get? What voltage do you get directly across the battery when its i) just sitting there, ii) engine running and supposedly charging and iii) trying to turn the starter? Knowing these will help decide but it sure sounds to me like the battery has gone flat while the car has been left unused and that this has caused it to fail and not accept charge any more. If it starts straight off on a jump start every time, its got to be the battery (either knackered or simply not charging due to another electrical problem) or possibly the battery earth connection, assuming you attached the negative jump lead somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 12.4v consistent. Stuff it, I'll get a new battery anyway! 😬 Edited by - Rampmonkey on 22 Jun 2013 20:19:56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 That doesn't make much sense. Should be more like 14v with the engine running if it is charging. Should also drop when trying to start. It's almost like the battery is disconnected. But it starts when jumped. Double check the battery negative connection to ground (the engine block). If your electrical meter can measure resistance, check for almost no resistance from battery negative to engine block. If you can get it started, check the voltage between the metal engine block and the battery negative. Should be almost exactly zero. Any voltage difference would mean a poor (high resistance) connection or no connection at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 ok, I'll look at the resistance in the morning. All the earths are sound. Just looking at new batteries at the moment. Any to avoid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myothercarsa2cv Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 What battery do you have at the moment? I'd get one that fits your battery cage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted June 22, 2013 Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 It's a banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbird Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 deleted similar question to above Edited by - tbird on 22 Jun 2013 21:56:20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadsport06 Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 You need to check the voltage when cranking, running and no running (which has already been said). Check your electrolyte levels in the banner as it may need topping up. Do you have a battery cut off if not used for long periods? Or since you have no power in the garage a solar panel to keep you battery topped up. If you are really only getting 12V with the car running then your battery isn't being charged from the alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted June 22, 2013 Share Posted June 22, 2013 sounds like alternator not charging. Check all connections to back of alternator for loose or broken wires etc. Similarly at the cut out switch if you have one. I had similar problem recently which turned out to be broken sense wire at alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted June 23, 2013 Author Share Posted June 23, 2013 Situation update for anyone 'future-tense' searching for guidance with a similar issue.... 1. Plugged the battery into the Optimate for a few hours to really give a chance to sort itself! All good, finishing in many green lights and 14v! (As opposed to yesterdays 12v and green lights! ) 2. Gave the alternator connections the once over, cleaning and re-seating where required. In the process, chanced upon a previously unseen brown/black spade connector buried in the wiring leading to the alternator. Never seen it before, never had any clue it was even there. THATS how buried in the wiring it was! 3. Scratched head briefly. Cleaned it. Attached it to the alternator on a remaining spade point that had been previously identified as auxilliary during installation last year. (At this point I must stress that the spare aux terminal on the alternator had remained free due to the instructions provided being VERY specific about which existing spade connectors went to which points. You can picture it now can't you? "Ah! So THATS what attaches to that terminal!" (Hope so.....I'm sure there are some electrical gurus out there now shaking there head in dismay.... ) 4. Re-attach battery. Turn key. Press starter. VROOOOOOOOM!!!!!!! 😬 BEST START EVER! Since owning the car, it has ALWAYS laboured on start. Now it goes first time! Must be chance thinks I. Bet next time it'll click and die again....Nope. Same story time after time. Excellent! So if you've arrived at this thread following a search in the tech forum, the moral is this....if there is a spare cable, connector, terminal or other wiring, whether you know about it or find it by accident several months later; it MUST go somewhere! 😬 Many thanks to all, once again! PS - I'm still gonna buy a new battery! MAybe treat myself to one of those Powermax jobbies.... Edited by - Rampmonkey on 23 Jun 2013 20:45:04 Edited by - Rampmonkey on 23 Jun 2013 20:46:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadsport06 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Glad you've got the car firing up now. Not sure why you would be getting a new battery if all is well. Have you checked the voltage so that you know your alternator is charging the battery? If you know it is charging and starts nicely then keep with your current battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Rendell Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 If the battery gave 12 v on the Optimate and had a green light and the next day went to 14V and also got a green light, sounds like you have a duff cell. If you read the voltage of the battery with everything switched off, you should see around 13.2 V (after a run). Piers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted June 23, 2013 Author Share Posted June 23, 2013 @ Roadsport - The battery is the original Banner and I suspect has 'absorbed' a fair bit of oil derived muck judging by the state of the inside of the cell caps. Figured why not get a nice new one, ideally a sealed maintenance free little number! I suspect this might lend weight to Piers' point about voltage. Couple of questions spring up, actually! 1. From the manual and electrical schematic, the brown/black spare connector is deemed 'redundant' and should be tied back. Anyone want to offer an explanation as to what it's for? (At the moment it's plugged into the aux point on the alternator) 2. Nerd time. The ignition charge light (?) on the rev counter. Where does it's signal ACTUALLY get taken from? I assume it's somewhere like the alternator as it is rev influenced and variable in its intensity suggesting an analogue feed. Edited by - Rampmonkey on 23 Jun 2013 20:56:04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Have you been able to check the battery voltage with the engine running which should now be well above 12 and closer to 14 Volts if its charging correctly. Measuring it is the only sure way of knowing if its charging. If its now working then maybe cleaning/remaking the connections has done the trick but I'd be surprised if connecting the brown/black spare wire has made a difference. What alternator type do you have and how many terminals are there, with and without wires on? The warning light goes between the battery and a connection on the alternator which is at chassis potential (0V) with the engine stopped, hence a glowing light, rising to battery voltage when running, so the light goes out. It doesn't really tell you what's happening other than if the belt comes off or the alternator output is really low for some other reason. Once the voltage gets close, the light's too dim to see. Edited to add: The brown/black wire is the alternator 'voltage sense' wire and is connected to the battery +ve. If you have an older Valeo alternator, this wire is connected to the terminal that is separate to the other three and allows the alternator to sense the battery voltage and deliver the right level of charge. If you have one of these or a similar alternator with a 'sense' terminal then this wire being off will stop your alternator from charging the battery. Paul Edited by - Paul Deslandes on 24 Jun 2013 19:03:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elie boone Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 The ign charge light is on the alternator side is mostly marked : DF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted June 24, 2013 Author Share Posted June 24, 2013 Paul, many thanks for that one. Thats exactly what I was after. The FRA252 Alternator replaced the original but I'm not aware what sort it was. It has has a total of four connections. 3 are grouped together in a cluster taking the 'standard' wiring and connectors with the fourth located separately now hosting the brown/black. "If you have one of these or a similar alternator with a 'sense' terminal then this wire being off will stop your alternator from charging the battery." - Makes perfect sense now someone has explained it! Laboured starts, battery always tired? Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 in which case the brown/black is now in the right place . Of the three bunched wires, the two thick brown wires go to the battery and the fuse box respectively, and the adjacent brown/yellow to the warning light. The remaining brown/black wire connects the regulator sense terminal to the battery. If you have a cut-out switch some of the actual routing will have been changed but the functions remain the same. Hopefully all will be well now. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 ☹️ OK. Continuation of a theme.... Looks like the alternator has given up the ghost. Doesn't look like it's giving anything back to the battery anymore. Followed up all of the advice above RE voltage testing etc. A start followed exactly what I'd expect of a system not being fed by the alternator: 1. Battery = 13.4v with a drop to 11.4 during ignition returning to steady 13.4v once running. 2. Ignition charge light remains bright as a button throughout the revs. Haven't shifted any leads or otherwise influenced any connections since everything was working hunky dory! So.....Lets get this alternator bench tested and if needs be, repaired or replaced. Looking for recommendations around the Aylesbury area before I go crawling to the major outlets! Edited for better English! Edited by - Rampmonkey on 19 Aug 2013 08:19:08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 How about a small wire to the alternator broken inside the insulation or connector ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 This will also be investigated, but I remind you - I am a 'Electrics Biff'! 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted August 19, 2013 Member Share Posted August 19, 2013 I'd be all over the alternator terminals with the multimeter and some jump wiring before I took the alternator off. It sounds as if the wires now look right by Paul's analysis but, as above, one of them might not be letting the smoke through. Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 The fact that you think the charge light is 'rev dependent' means that something is not right in your system. The light goes out when the battery is being charged, and it should go out as soon as the engine is running normally, you shouldn't have to rev the engine to make it happen. Sounds like your alternator is on the way out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rampmonkey Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 Afternoon Charlie, The previous (original?) Alternator delivered charge fine until the bearings gave out 18 months ago. It did need some beans though - the charge light remained illuminated until the revs had passed app 2000 RPM for the first time on starting. The replacement alternator displays a similar trait, so I identified this as 'normal'. I'm just hoping I haven't got a fault with an 18 month old alternator. Another bill I could do without! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Are you overtightening the drive belt leading to premature bearing failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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