3.0 litr cranks have arrived for the H1.

[Mickrick]

here 🥰 🥰 🥰

[CK]

🥰

 

Chris

 

Edited by - CK on 10 Nov 2008 20:17:03

[Mickrick]

Yep. Guess what's going in this hole here It's going to take me some time, It won't be rolling untill this time next year. Only the 2.6 though.

These guys here will sell you one.

[Peter Carmichael]

Lovely... and then he goes and ruins it with BS 19% losses from rear wheel HP to give flywheel HP.

[Mickrick]

Peter, if you speak to Jack Frost, at Holeshot, he'll usually give you estimated power to the wheels.

After all, every engine is different, and a builder can only estimate power, untill it's been run on the dyno.

[Peter Carmichael]

Not really what I was getting at... but I know I'm on a losing wicket so I won't go any further.

 

Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 10 Nov 2008 23:21:40

[Mickrick]

As am I, I think. But I'd be interested in an explaination as to why losses are related to speed?

 

Edited by - Mickrick on 11 Nov 2008 06:39:37

[Peter Carmichael]

But I'd be interested in an explaination as to why losses are related to speed?

 

I'll try and rush this one through quickly and without controversy.

 

Imagine the car on the rolling road doing its power run. Power is being delivered by the engine and is causing acceleration of the rollers, with losses (transmission and tyres) along the way.

 

Now go from full throttle to closed throttle and dip the clutch...

... from max power to zero power

... the speed at which everything is turning over is the same

... and the losses are most definitely not zero.

 

The losses are unlikely to be higher than they were at full throttle. The losses may be less than they were before, but that requires complex mechanisms based on sliding contact on meshing gear teeth (which isn't how they are designed) or viscous effects in the microscopic oil film between meshing components.

 

The most useful and accurate approximation is that the losses are the same.

 

Between max power and zero power, the losses are the same because they are related to roller speed. QED.

 

[Mickrick]

😬 ROL! And you have the nerve to say John Hartley is full of it! 😬

 

Thanks for your explaination anyway. I fail to see what any of that has to do with my original post, about another option for this lovelly bit of kit.

 

I also fail to see why, when an obviously brilliant engineer, takes real world numbers, (Dyno figures to the rear wheels) and does an approximate estimation of losses, to give flywheel HP, you suggest he is full of "BS". And, then state you don't want to be contravesial.

 

Academics are seldom any use at engineering. One must have a mistrust of theorists. (Keith Duckworth)

[RiF]

Still working on the possible engine for my next 7 A possibility

 

RiF Driving one of the first Duratec 7, and building CA07BON for Henrietta 😬 😬 😬.for pictures of 7 and carbon andCA07BON

[DaveK]

What are the main differences between the hartley h1 and the powertec V8. I don't have access to the hartley site at work, so cannot look for myself

 

They must be very similar as are they not both using the busa barrels and top ends ?

 

A customer of mine who hillclimbs has built his own version, and is currently looking at a 2.0ltr V8 using Yamaha R1 parts

 

Dave

 

[DohNut]

 

Mick

If you read Peters post he did not say that John Hartley is full of bull****, he said that adding 19% to the Wheel horsepower number to get a flywheel horsepower was bull****.

 

[dannylt]

I found that a bit shocking when I first read it too. But it's probably intended for an American audience :-). I believe the Powertec unit is a fair bit larger, probably more expensive, but at least has a lot of race development. Not sure if that means it's reliable though.

[k80rum]

It's Powertec that supply the Radical engine's isn't it? I'd have thought they had lightness & reliability nailed. Hopefully cost too if they're producing other engines in numbers

 

Hartley always struck me as a lower volume engine builder. I could be doing them an injustice though - it's purely based on impression.

 

Darren E

 

K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library

 

Duratec/SuperlightR hybrid!

 

 

 

Edited by - k80rum on 11 Nov 2008 17:32:39

[Mickrick]

Lovely... and then he goes and ruins it with BS 19% losses from rear wheel HP to give flywheel HP

 

Sorry but I don't see why it's BS. O.K. so you might lose more or less, who cares? It's rear wheel power what counts. It's flywheel power that's BS. John Hartley's probably giving that, because that's what people tend to want to know.

 

Anyway, it's O/T. I just wanted to share my enthusiasm, for what I believe to be a nice package, at very reasonable money.

Now there are 2.6, 2.8, and 3.0 liter options. The Busa top ends also lend themselves very well to turbo charging. Holeshot have built over a thousand turbo Busa engines.

John is currently working with Jack Frost on a 2.0 liter version, using two GSXR 1000 top ends.

 

As an aside, none of the other V8 bike engine builders ever responded to my enquiries.

Jack Frost at Holeshot, has always answered my questions without hesitation, and never tried to sell me anything he thought I didn't need. A true gentleman.

Guess who I'm saving my pennies for.

[Nifty]

The Hartley engine has a different angle to the V, but not by too much I don't think (haven't looked it up), which may aid it's installation into an S3 chassis.

I think the RSTV8 and the Powertec units are very similar in size.

 

As far as I can ascertain the Hartley engine has not had much real life use, whereas the RST and the Powertec have been some long time in gestation and development and the Powertec unit has a well proven record for race reliability.

 

The Hartley engine was probably the cheapest (though £ to $ descent may have changed that).

The Powertec engines are produced in the greatest quantity but are not cheap because quality costs.

(Powertec and Radical are sister companies)

 

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

 

Edited by - Nifty on 11 Nov 2008 17:50:34

[Mickrick]

Nifty, I think the powertec is 73, and the Hartley 75 degrees. (Mini HB )

There are quite a few cars fitted with the Hartley.

DP1, off road buggies, Atom, and Elise that I know of. Oh, and Johns S3 Caterham, with clams!

I'll ask how many are out there.

[Nifty]

When you last posted about the H1 I did a bit of a search on the interweb and could not find any evidence that the DP1 was actually running with the V8 in it and similarly the H1 engined Atom has had some problems getting up and going (it's being built by the same chap as an experimental platform for his DP1 I believe). I also understand that there have been problems with cooling issues in the cylinder heads.

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm Mick and wish you the best of luck with your project but I have my reservations about the Hartley engine, I feel he's trying to run before he's walked. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[Mickrick]

There's some video's I've seen on You Tube somewhere, of both the Atom, and the DP1. I haven't heard about the cooling issues with the heads though.

I did read something somewhere about this, or oil pressure differences between banks with the RST though. Must be a common issue with these type of engines, if this is correct.

Heat has always been an issue with bike engines, they produce lots. I see the Levante has coolers sticking out of the side of the chassis tub. I was thinking of this idea before I saw the Levante, and have been thinking how sidepods could also create some downforce at the same time.

Thanks for the heads up. Excuse the pun!

[Peter Carmichael]

It is bull****, bolocks and half-arsed. If he can't deal with a number or two he is a mechanic and not an engineer.

[Nifty]

Mick,

 

Are you following Dennis Palatov's website?

 

His latest update of 1/11/08 shows his cars in his new garage/factory and the picture midway down clearly shows a transverse mounted engine, whereas his design diagrams show the V8 to be longitudinally mounted, suggesting it is the bike engine in the car still - the exhaust seems to suggest this too though the picture is too small for my eyes to be absolutely certain it isn't a V8.

http://dpcars.net/dp1test/index.htm

 

Page 10, 27/04/08 update of the DP1 story, gives the following quote:

"Also while on the subject of V8s, both Ariel and Caterham recently announced versions using a supercharged RST (see the M5 pages in the PAST section). Their prices are insane - upwards of $250K?! And there's no way they're going to put 500 hp down in a 1300 lb car with only rear wheels driven. But hey, it validates the market. Just hope the RST doesn't blow up with supercharger like it's reputed to do normally aspirated :) Interestingly, both companies released photoshopped pictures instead of real ones. I wonder if that engine actually exists yet. Time will tell.

 

The above leads me to pricing. Looking at the BOM and looking at the market out there, the original $125K for the dp1 is starting to look a bit low. So the new MSRP is now $150K complete with a 3.0L V8 (425+hp), AWD (so it can actually use the power!), and a track introduction to the car at PIR."

 

I've not heard of any stories of any RST engines blowing unduly and their pedigree (and that of the Powertec units) supercedes Hartley's work by years.

Russel Savoury had an RSTV8 engined car at the Autosport show before John Hartley had a picture on a sheet of paper by his own admission.

They are of course Yanks, so we have to make allowances for ignorance beyond their own shores 😳

 

Also, his account of some of the troubles he's been having with the engine in the Atom making for interesting reading (he's a very frank and honest chap I have to say):

http://dpcars.net/atom/index.htm

 

Please don't read my comments and those I've made on other threads as trying to p155 on your parade. It's more a case of not wanting to see someone fall into a hole acting as a development engineer for someone else with their own wallet.

I've known Russel Savoury for a number of years and have had the pleasure of riding in his original RSTV8 7. I've also been losely associated with the Powertec V8s through my friendship with Richard Ince and his Radical SR8. Both of these engines have undergone years of development to get them where they are .. which is one of the reasons they are so expensive.

 

I really do hope I'm wrong but the stories I've heard (some of which you can read in the bits above) would suggest to me that I would not put my money into a Hartley engine just yet.

 

Incidently, are Holeshot acting as the GB agents ?

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[Mickrick]

Nifty,

 

This here is definately an H1 in an Atom.

 

I recieved an e-mail from Jack Frost this morning, telling me there are 10 enines out there, 6 up and running in cars, and 4 on the way.

 

Holeshot are assembling the engines using John Hartleys bottom ends, and thier own top ends. I recieved a very detailed bill of material listing which parts are Hartley supplied, and which are vendor. Along with the cost of each.

Like I've said in the past, they are very experienced Hayabusa engine builders. (or is that mechanics? )

 

Of course, none of this is new technology, Kieth Duckworth did this years ago, by taking two FVA's and building the DFV.

 

I accept that there are not many of these engines, but I think that if you go down a route such as this, you have to accept there will be issues.

 

Mike Biddle for instance with his RST engined car, I'm sure there weren't many of those engines around (How many of these have been built, anyone know?) when he started. But he knew what he wanted, and I'm sure went through hell, and high water to get the car where it is today. I take my hat off to his determination! and a truly unique car.

 

Personally I don't want an RST V8 for several reasons, but that's another story.

 

There's no way an engine can be well proven untill there are a few out there. Someone has to buy them in the begining.

[Nifty]

Mick,

 

The video of the H1 Atom is Dennis Palatov's car

 

There's no way an engine can be well proven untill there are a few out there. Someone has to buy them in the beginning.

I agree with you, with a little alteration .... You cannot have a customer proven engine without having customers

Both RST and Powertec undertook a number of years of testing and development before releasing a product to the market .. and changes were made to achieve a marketable product. I know that Hartley has done some redesign but Dennis Palatov's experiences may suggest that he might not have the finished article just yet.

 

The Cosworth DFV had it's problems in it's early years I'm sure .. but that was an engine that would have been stripped and rebuilt on a highly frequent basis.

None of these lightweight V8s or indeed the DFV have any ground breaking technology, they just utilise the basics of someone elses existing block/cylinder head design and double it up onto a common crank. The "originality" comes from doing it in the lightest, smallest or most powerful configuration and that's down to material use and structural design.

 

Like I've said in the past, they [Holeshot racing] are very experienced Hayabusa engine builders. (or is that mechanics? )

I'm not doubting that for a minute but whilst that would give one some reassurance it doesn't negate any possible design issues with the product they are assembling.

I am not trying to switch you to purchasing a different engine just expressing my own reservations that the Hartley H1 is sufficiently developed yet.

I accept that there are not many of these engines, but I think that if you go down a route such as this, you have to accept there will be issues.

Yet again I agree, just as I had issues installing the R400 into my '95 chassis, but there is a difference with having issues with the installation and having issues with the engine itself.

 

I hope my doubts are proven unfounded and that you build a troublefree and exhilerating car *thumbup*

 

 

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

 

 

Edited by - Nifty on 12 Nov 2008 19:00:50

[Mickrick]

Cheers

 

If you don't buy a ticket, you'll never win the lottery

 

There's plenty of proven engines out there that have gone bang too.

 

It's all a gamble.

[timbo]

 

Mickrick, must go round to see Jack...if this is what he is at.. just 5 mins round the corner from me.. I'll see if I can get one out under my coat

 

wanting more cc's in the busa