Tech Forum - Review of Classes 2 & 3

[Richard Price]

Trouble is it just makes people "have to " spend money to be competitve. So you may as well run in 5.

I'm all for keeping the cars more standard. Keeping the cars running a plenum and MEMS effectively caps power and expenditure.

There is nothing stopping an R300 changing cams, porting and remaping, and ending up with 200bhp.

If you look at this years results for class 2 and 3, there is really very little difference between modified 1600's and standard 1800's.

Yes, modifed 1600's rev all the way to the rev limiter, where the 1800's are less eager, but the 1600's lack mid range torque, and its this midrange torque that puls you out of the corners. My peak torque is at just over 6k rpm, with quite a dip in the curve just below 5k. If I can keep it in the sweet spot above 6k, it goes very well, but that's not easy on a tight sprint or hillclimb.

 

No, Standard 1800's and modified 1600's are a good match, some times the 1800's will be a little quicker, and sometimes the 1600's will be quicker. Or is it that the drivers have done a better job on that day?? I think it's too close to call.

[Jason Plato]

your not on the throttle long enough at a lot of courses for the tweeking of 1600's to make any difference to actual times - its a red herring at most courses . Aintree and Mira is probably the exception . Look at my battle at Pembrey in Red Daves bog stock 1600 K .

 

We should not focus on what satisfies the people who are currently leading classes or the vocal minority on here - too much navel gazing In my opinion.

 

we need to consider the championship and what is required to bring in more entries, hence my earlier suggestion of including VVC's , R300's and seeing what happens

 

 

here is C7 TOP

South Wales AO

[david nelson]

Dave

 

so what do you think about classes by BHP

class 1 upto 120bhp

class 2 120 -150bhp

class 3 151- 200 bhp

class 4 >200 bhp

class 5 slicks

 

 

David

[Jason Plato]

impossible to control ☹️, I'd get my grinding gear out and start porting the head and then claim 149 bhp when realy it would be 190 bhp

 

look at Arnie turing up at the drag race with his 249bhp engine or whatever it was to win the class he shouldnt have been in ....... 🙆🏻

 

here is C7 TOP

South Wales AO

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 11 Nov 2006 19:14:26

[Grahame W]

Having digested yesterdays additions to the debate, with much discussion on the benefit or otherwise of a few extra BHP am I right in thinking that bolting on a set of ACB 10's to a class 3 car on radials has a bigger impact on time than selling it and buying a class 5 car. Looking at the times from this year it appears that the tyres are at least as much as an advantage than an extra 20-30 BHP although I admit it is difficult to be sure as the ACB guys are good committed experienced competitors whereas generally those on radials tend to to be the dipping their toes into the water group.

 

Reverting to radial 1B's should attract more casual entrants, reflects the attitudes of some other championships, suits road/sprint cars fine, and as to when such a change could be implemented have the front runners really got stocks of ACB's in their garage getting harder and losing their initial grip over the winter?

 

As the gerneral concensus is that the modded 1600/std 1800 solution from last year has worked pretty well then the remaining issue is to have a class 4/5/6/+ structure that just evens up the power spread a bit more than the current rules permit.

[Mr Happy]

and the x-flows need sorting

 

Tm

[red dave]

Advertise the events better as they are not being well covered so far.

We go to National sprint weekends and do not promote ourselves at all. Ask CC to get involved abit more with this advertising.as they do with the academy and R400 series.Why are we not part of the Caterham Motorsports brand 🤔

 

Low Flying needs to promote all events from Jan onwards and open all events to all who own a 7

The Calender must be more visable to the club members to get interest.

 

Class rules must be open to bring in all the new cars, and the views of individuals not allowed to complicate issues. If some one is over modifying or twisting rules for gain then success is not true and if the individuals are satisfied with this then that is their problem.

 

Class 2/3 could be better split. ACB's in class 3 and all others in 2 with any other tyre, the intro of VVC and R300 would be good as the level of competiveness from the driver would put them on the right tyre. the two class at present have the same cars, the ACB 10 being the key difference.

 

The cars in class 3 are more eaqual than we imagine as was proven at Pembray when DJ and DMcF who compeated superbly over two days to share the tropheys. DJ compeating as he says in my Bog standard 135BHP 1600ss. against the 180BHP Xflow, which was also driven by Mr McF senior that weekend.We saw two different cars with two different drivers with 4 very different succcess stories.As each driver concentrated on his own race. Not that the other car was better in any way.

does this mean the class should outlaw all good drivers ❗

Should we have a parc de ferme at events

Or should we get on with securing the future of a lets face it a sport that possibly people may find difficult to finance.

 

Get people in first ❗ as some events proved this year some classes are under threat through lack of numbers, what is the point of compeating in a group on your own, It would be better to push against a higher spec car than none at all.

 

Class 4/5 should be BHP split up to 200BHP and over 200BHP as these cars are wasted on the wrong tyres anyway.(you Know you want slicks on that Beautiful R500 MD)

 

EU type politics are creeping in and this would be tragic

 

Keep it simple and easy for people to get involved this is important

 

Dave W

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[red dave]

just read Dave Nelson's thread on chit chat and the responses

 

If that is what some think what about the rest who haven't posted.

 

interesting though

 

Dave W

[robmar]

I think the main issue with class 2/3 is that the original intention for them was to have a class where relatively stock cars have a competitive class structure to compete in (as someone has previosly said...) however as with all things with ruless and regulations they have been intrepreted and discussed to length.

 

Myself included many people have spent money and time getting their cars to be as competitive as possible within the rules, but this is seen as a opposite to what the original idea of these classes are. However these are still the most popular classes by far and there could be potential for a split from 2 to 3 classes...

 

Class 2 = as rules are today however have the following further restrictions, no head mods whatso ever, no adjustable suspension (bump/rebound...), notional 150 bhp limit (I know hard to police) for engines such as twinks and xflows

 

Class 3 = same as class 2 but allow list 1b radials (should we exclude superspoft compounds????)

 

Class 4 = allow unlimited mods on plenum (for 1600 & 1800), allow adjustable suspension, allow unlimited mods on xflows/twinks,

allow 1b cross plys, allow vvc's, allow r300's

 

would this suit those wanting to have a really unmodified class structure whilst at the same time allowing those wanting to run sticky tyres and have invested in curent rules to have a home to go to? Not sure how many like RP in class 2 this would effect?

 

then go with the amalgamated class 4 & 5 being discussed currently or alternativly allow current class 4 cars into the new class 4 above as most events there is not much in it between class 4 on list 1a tyres vs class 3 leaders on acb's....

 

thoughts - will cross post on the class 4/5 thread...

 

Rob

 

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[Manxseven]

Guys,

I haven't read all the threads running, so apologies if this has already been raised. 😳

 

If we go with BHP limits (per class), how will be this enforced 🤔

The regulations have to be ratified with the MSA (Motor Sports Association), and I'm sure they will want to know how the bhp limits will be enforced, and what regulations are in place in the event of a dispute.

 

You won't get a one fit all sysytem, keep it simple I say, no bhp limits, just cc's.

 

How long before someone says; no wide track, no lsd, Windscreens must be fitted etc etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Caterham Fireblade here

[Dannyboy]

hmm interesting debate....

 

I think things are perhaps in some quarters getting far too serious...

 

I started sprinting in my old pile of bits cos it's a cheap way of competing, and, for some reason am competative...

 

If it started, as it seems to be going, become like most other forms of motorsport where if you spend money you win, cheque book racing, I think we'll kill the championship. I'd certainly stop competing if we started to need to spend oodles of cash, it would be cheaper to go racing properly.

 

At present, it's pretty much right, admittedly there are issues with high powered x-flows that could do with addressing to maximise the competition...It's never fun to enter knowing that another car is going to be 10mph quicker, however in class 2 we've seen that through speed traps the tweeked 1600's are only slightly quicker than the standard 18's..1-2mph which could be explained by better traction, better driving etc etc....I'd guess that some 1600's are possibly 10-15bhp more powerful....so would agree that VVC's and non TB R300's would not be significantly quicker so should be allowed.

 

However, if we then allow the remaining supersport cars to be modifed from standard with trick ECu's and TB's isn't that losing the point of 'AFFORDABLE' competition. I really would be sad to see this clubman's championship denegrate into a money spending exercise. Perhaps we should drop the championship altogether and just run a series of sprints? This would prevent certain factions from getting all worked up about 'the championship' and forgetting that we're all here for fun! No-one is going to get an F1 or touring car drive from our championship!

 

I love the fact that I can compete competatively in a 170,000 mile old, standard bolted together old shed...and that's possibly being polite!i love the spirit of competition and the camerardery with fellow competitors....something that seemed to be forgotten a tad in a certain other class late on this year! 😬

 

Dannyboy

 

[Steve Robinson]

Danny - well said sir

 

Class 2 & 3 need to be as close to standard as possible to standard cars (such that they can be defined) to attract newcomers.

 

Steve

[Graham Howard]

Another for Danny. The ingredients for success in Sprints (and I have yet to find it myself!) are in order

 

Driver

Tyres

Car set up

Engine.

 

Most people until they actually try competing think that engine power is the most important factor.

 

Classes 2 and 3 are the best supported so I would support leaving them alone. (the drivers with the most power rarely win). Banning cross plies in Class 3 would probably encourage more people to have ago. ACB10's are not road tyres and many people want to use the same tyres on the road as they do for competing.

 

The best thing about classes 2 and 3 is that you can be competitive with a standard road going car. If we try to make radical changes it will more than likely drive people away rather than attract new competitors.

 

And I have no idea what changes should be made to classes 4 and 5!

 

Graham.

 

 

 

[robmar]

Graham - I disagree about acb's not being road tyres

 

I drove to various events on my c24 acb's this year and they where more than fine

 

this common misconception is one of those myths that won't go away

 

I reckon i did 1000+ road miles, 10 sprints/hillclimbs and a trackday on my acb10 compound 24's and they are still road legal

[robmar]

*confused*I forgot to add that I don't know how that would compare with supersoft varieties of radial tyres

 

which is what everyone would switch to anyway

[Gambo]

Rob ,I have 048 soft, supersoft not available, These have done 2trackdays Llandow, very abrasive, lemans and back and 3 sprints, and have plenty of tread left. I would think they would last quite a bit of next year.

Radials are £350 a set not £650.

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP

[david nelson]

although this is not a real discussion about ACB 10's my 2005 set were used for road, sprints/hill climbs and 1/2 of the 2006 season. The fronts are still legal and the rears ok for practice/ track days.

 

I am always amased how well the last, the only problem on the road is they have far to much grip. Takes the fun out of corners.

 

 

David

[robmar]

I thought the reason for outlawing ACB's isn't based on cost, becuase i could easily go aout and spend the same price on CR500's

 

I thought the disucsion was that it was felt that for newbies and for people who also did a lot of road miles they would never consider these tyres Vs those that main usage is competition do...

 

and the point I was trying to make was actualy these tyres do last longer than a lot of people think, maybe it is different with 200 bhp+ thou

 

rob

[Gambo]

Sorry Rob , I know the point you were making, But I just wanted to point out that you can save money buy buying yoko's or similar, even if they wore out at the same rate.You are quite right the Cr500s are just as expensive, I personally don't use them as the fronts are too skinny for my big VX I am surprised that you and David get so many miles out of your ACB's, I am not disputing it, just did not belive they would last that long as they are sooooooo soft.

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP

[DSL]

Just to balence the ACB10 wear issue a tad, at longcross 2 I used over half a set of new fronts, trying (and just failing ☹️ 😬) to beat Mr Rogers in his tricked up R400+ 😬 😬

 

But the Rears seem to last very well *thumbup*

[Simon.Rogers1]

There's your answer then Darren - your not using the right pedal enough. Rears should be shagged earlier.. You should try harder mate

[DSL]

Simon, good point well made 😬 😬

[Gambo]

*arrowup* LOL

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP

[Gambo]

MInd you , I just had a thought If we ban ACB's I won't have any excuse when I get beat 😳

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP

[robmar]

Gambo

 

It is just that David and myslef drive like wusses hence we don't wear out the tyres 😳

 

If the decision is made that we outlaw these tyres, then fine I will go along with that decision but we have to make it for the correct reasons. Plus the grip from them is seriously addictive so there maybe a need for some cold turkey from some of us.

 

Also what happens if you have someone who is new to sprinting who has a boggo superlight runs acb10's (compound 30 or 33) which lets not forgot is what they where delivered with when new, where do they go, class 6 🤔

 

I understand the need to attract new people to events and that it is perceived that acb10's make the class unattractive to some, but at the same time this is exactly what makes it attractive to others, so hopefully a solution is agreed upon that suits the majority. There are a number of options out there and we just need to agree on what is best..

 

On a sperate thread I wonder how close class 2 on stunners Vs class 3 on yoko 48's (or whatever) will be? and will we in effect have 2 classes distingisbale by tyre choice (1a/1b) but having similar times. So in effect no difference...

 

Rob