Davey Bee Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I know that we've all played with Pro-shift on the Elite box at the Autosport Show and such like but as anyone got any real experience of using a paddle shift in a Caterham. Please all but my darling wife! (and she as no idea) as told me about the error of my ways and if I was being sensible I would not own a Caterham TRY 5S Who needs a Duratec here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 You need to contact Lawrence Hoy. He has a BEC and Stu (the Wizzzard) is building bits for him. LH already has push-button gearchange (off-the-shelf, I understand) and I believe his Friends are working on paddle-shift. I see him every Tuesday at least - I'll get the latest next week (he was changing the engine last Tuesday...) Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Edited by - Myles on 17 Jul 2006 19:45:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Have a look out for Simon Rogers in the Speed section down there I understand he may be running such a system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 FWIW, I understand that the button-shift is reliable - so no particular reason why paddle should be any different as long as you can engineer-out slop, rebound etc... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 Dave, try and blat mail Simon Rogers. He is running an Elite 'box and paddle shift. Watched him at Pembrey, seems . RED 2.0 HPC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 Richard, does he post on here? Done a search but can't find him. I can only find references to him. I'm very interested to hear his views on this set up. TRY 5S Who needs a Duratec here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davey Bee Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 😳 Really need to change these glasses. Found him 😳 TRY 5S Who needs a Duratec here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I am running an electronic gearchange mechanism on my BEC (Kliktronic) which is activated by some paddles on my wheel (much easier and more fun to use than prodding buttons). I dare say that this specific model would not be powerful enough for a car engine gearbox though. My paddle mechanism is half home-brew/half cloned from an offtheshelf product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Simon will no doubt be along soon so all I'll say for now is that the system on his car is very impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers1 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Sorry Davey at Longcross yesterday using the paddle shift 😬 I have as a few guys have described the Elite 6spd box with PowerTec (Radical)PS1 Power Shifter. This is a pneumatic system and in a different league to the Pro Shift which is basically a sollenoid. I'm still learning to use it really but all I can say is 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬 A couple of the sprint guys have tried my car whilst i was still in the set up stages. Their response was "********** awsome" 😬 There were a couple of people arround at Longcross who were spectating and can coment on the external impressions but from inside the car it allows the following. Extremely late braking - no heel and toe required (i can't do this anyway) no slotting gears to help braking - very much like F1 just stand on the brakes and pull the trigger whilst fighting the braking with BOTH hands on the wheel. Yesterday I found that due to the scarry parts of Longcross through the snake I was able to come into the apex in say 3rd gear not upsetting the car then change down and punch out in 2nd right in the power band. It changes gear in 0.1 of a second. It deffinately allows me to concentrate on my driving and whilst it probably gains me time it deffinately prevents missed gears or a box of neutrals. In a sprint this is critical as the run would be lost. Above all its just a hoot 😬 On a trackday its just in another league 20min without taking your hand off the wheel. You get into a great rythum. Now that I have done it the next guys would be able to install in a very simple manor. I've done all the trial and error install stuff. There are some different driving techniques that i have developed and am still developing to improve the use of the box and shifter but these are best described over the phone. It is still the only car other than the Radicals running the system- call me and become the second only car in the world to have the PowerShifter. 07919 412109 Giving it some Welly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Simon - how does your shifter remove the need to heel-and-toe on downchanges? Is this one of the systems that blips the throttle when it senses a downshift? Or do you mean that it is so quick that you can change down the gears really late? I am hoping to test mine on the road this week and am much looking forward to it 😬 Edited by - Ferrino on 16 Jul 2006 16:12:36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 I'd also be intrigued as to what kind of mechanism you are using to blip the throttle? K2RUM - The car of two halves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers1 Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 No blip of the throtle. You just change down so late that the revs are so much lower the aftermath of not heel and toeing is non descript. I always used to concentrate on the braking and deal with any potential lock up with the standard box but with the shifter changing down so late i have suffered no lock ups as I used to. Car is so settled its unbelievable. Shift takes place in 0.1sec so reves haventd droped much durring the process. I know technically this is not correct but its simply yhe speed of change and the lateness ie using the brakes to stop and not the engine that makes it so smooth. There is no "cheap" system available at present that blips the throtle as this would need another actuator which could theoretically remain jambed open Edited by - Simon.Rogers on 16 Jul 2006 21:20:53 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 There is a vacuum operated sytem available that blips on the downshift. It works via a load cell that senses the down shift pressure in the linkage, tells the vacuum unit which then blips the throttle via a diaphram unit on the throttle. The throttle blip is almost undetectable at higher speeds, more so at lower speed. Its enough to unload the load on the cogs and allow clutchless down changes that are very smooth. You do however need to be on the overrun for it to work well in order for there to be sufficient vacuum in the sytem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 My guess is the key to this system on a conventional engined car is to reduce the engines inertia to such a level that the speed of the paddle shift can actually provide an advantage in gearchange time. Idealy you need lightweight engine internals, 5.5" or similar clutch and virtually no flywheel. The Bike engined cars can of course do all this out of the box . Dave here is C7 TOP South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 "Idealy you need lightweight engine internals, 5.5" or similar clutch and virtually no flywheel" No Dave, this does not seem to work. Increasing the idle RPM to about 3000 does though! K2RUM - The car of two halves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 why - still too much inertia in a VX or particular to the Quaife box or does it not work in general Arnie 🤔 Simons was shifting well in action last weekend . here is C7 TOP South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 You can go some way to clutchless downshifts on a BEC by undercutting the reverse face of the dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon.Rogers1 Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Dave I agree re the inertia. I've already been chatting to Jason re suppliers of a suitable Flywheel. We have been talking about 2.5 kg ish and as I do want to drive it smoothly on the road am also talking of a 4 paddle cintered 7.5 inch clutch. The lower inertia will simply help the gear changes keeping revs up in both directions. However as I've learnt to use the system this is less and less of a problem. The clutch is there to help ❗ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Dave, I don't think the inertia is the issue unless I'm still far of the mark. I can understand that on a BEC all the bits are smaller/lighter but my flywheel and clutch together way less than 5 kilos, I've got (well 'had' may be a better term) cross drilled narrow journals on the crank with half the normal number of counterweights so the crank is 9kgs or 55% the weight of the oem item. Inertia certainly effects the velocity of the dog unloading, which makes for quicker upchanges (particularly if you use a load cell ign cut as I do) but on a downshift the speed of the shift is derived from a close match between the engine speed in the new (lower) gear to the reducing road speed. Low inertia may reduce the damage caused on the dogs when you get it to engage, but it is strain in doing so which causes the missed gears/lockups/potential for dog damage. Whatever, the engine needs to be 'blipped' a la heal & toe to make this work, and that requires an actuator on the throttle or a means of inducing air to the inlet manifold to make the engine rev. This is why the high tickover works, it reduces the differential in engine to road speeds. K2RUM - The car of two halves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 I see and understand what your saying Arnie re the downchange . My comments on inertia were realy directed at reducing the speed of the upchange here is C7 TOP South Wales AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrino Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Re. automatic throttle-blipping - there is a unit made by Trickshifter which uses the idle-speed screw to blip when it senses a downchange - see here. I'd like to learn how to heel & toe first though...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Ferrino, heel and toe is all very well and extremely satisfying once you've mastered it but you would never go back to it after trying the automatic system. I doubt you'd ever match the downshift speed either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Elizabeth Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Interesting that the Trickshifter is made by Techtronics - who now appear to be part of Proshift ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSL Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Heel & toe not possible with my Busa engined car, as the lightened crank spins up & down so fast. You won't need to worry about it *thumbup* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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