DuncanK Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 When I tried to get my 1.4K going this year I just got the dreaded starter motor 'click'. Turned out that my banner battery was dead - my own fault - the immobiliser had completely flattened it over the winter. A new Powervamp gel battery got it going and I've been out a few times and remembered to disconnect it whenever leaving it for more than a couple of days (much easier with the powervamp's allen key fitting). However this morning, the car obviously knew it was MOT day, and decided to stay in the garage! All I got was the click again. 🙆🏻 Battery voltage is 12.4V (11.4V with main beam on, and engine off). Voltage dropped to 10.9V with the ignition key held in crank position. Do these sound reasonable values? When I held the key in crank for several seconds, I heard another 'click' noise then the battery voltage came up. I'm thinking I've blown a fuse somewhere may be? The other odd thing was that while bending over the engine, I noticed the air bypass valve on the throttle body was making random ticking noises - I wouldn't expect this to be moving with ignition on but engine not running. Having searched for other threads on this, I think I'm going to have to strip down and check the wiring to the starter motor, before may be changing it for a new one. Caterham are talking £116+vat for one with built in solenoid which they claim is more powerful. My current one I think is the original 1995 Lucas one with solenoid on top. Any suggestions on what to do? Typical eh? Just when the sun comes out! M7JVL 1.4K with clamshells (Sheep-liker's 'other half'!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Normally, if the IAVC is chattering it is a lack of battery power issue - well it is with Susan's Elise! JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Den Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 AFAIK, if you disconnect the battery and then reconnect it, it is normal for the ICAV to "chatter" as it resets itself. Mine does it every single time because of the FIA cutoff switch. Den http://www.dens7.co.uk Edited by - Dirty Den on 5 Jun 2006 17:53:48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Battery voltage is 12.4V (11.4V with main beam on, and engine off). Voltage dropped to 10.9V with the ignition key held in crank position. Do these sound reasonable values? 1. 12.4 is slightly low and would indicate a battery with approx 75% charge (full charge is 12.6v) 2. A drop to 11.4v with the mainbeams on is very large. The voltage should stay substantially the same. 3. 10.9v with the key held in the crank position, but presumably NOT cranking, is also very low. Running the maths, both 2. & 3. above indicate an internal resistance in the battery (or in the connections to the battery) of about 80 milliohms. The calculation comes up the same in both cases. A normal battery would show about 10 milliohms, so the difference is significant. So either the new battery has a problem OR, probably more likely, one or both of the main battery cables is not tightened correctly or has some corrosion. Check both of these latter possibilities first. If that comes up blank, then suspect the new battery has a problem. A good battery and connections, in my opinion, would only result in a volts drop of about 0.15v with the mainbeam on and around 0.2 volts with the key held in the crank position but not actually cranking. On real crank, the battery voltage should stay above 9v if the battery is good. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 The Odyssey (Powervamp badge them as their own these days) sits at a higher voltage than conventional batteries - the one I have beside me sits at 13.1V fully charged. I had quite a lengthy set of chats with Powervamp - and one thing that will kill the batteries (they aren't 'gel' batteries by the way... 'starved electrolyte' apparently) is repeated deep-discharge - typically with a parasitic load (e.g. your immobiliser). They also like a higher charging voltage while on the car - 14.5 to 14.7V according to the literature. Having said that, I've been religiously checking mine recently, removing it from the car and running it on a Powervamp 9640 three-stage charger to keep it in top condition. My alternator settles down to 13.8-13.9ish volts - but the battery has always proven to be at full capacity after a good run (and allowing the battery to settle) - so I'm not so worried about this these days. FWIW, I have seen one Odyssey beaten to death recently - possibly by occasional parasitic load, possibly by occasional inadequate charging, possibly by occasional overheating - anyway, the voltage would sit somewhat higher than yours - but less than mine. About 12.8ish volts IIRC. It struggle manfully - it would churn the engine over for ages - but not with vigour. Powervamp tested it and found it to be an ex-battery. Excellent product if looked after - and excellent service from Powervamp by the way. Give Ed Roller a call or email him on "ed at powervamp dot com" - he's a very helpful chap and should be able to help you narrow down whether you've killed your battery or not... Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Edited by - Myles on 5 Jun 2006 20:57:51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris__ Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Have you actually sorted your starting issues now Myles? Thought I'd sorted mine by messing about with mounting the starter and rebuilding and regreasing the motor and solenoid, but they came back with a vengeance yesterday :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 5, 2006 Share Posted June 5, 2006 Yep - for now*. The Brise solenoid had died - less than a year old and despite being sold to me on the basis that it wouldn't have any problems with heat... The FIA-switch was dodgy and I replaced the major wires as a matter of course. Also doubled-up the earths to make sure that wasn't an issue. A fresh battery topped it all off. *actually, I did have a clicking-solenoid problem at the w/e - when first trying to start the car after a week-long layup. Not quite sure about that one - the car started throughout the rest of the day despite being rather hot. I'll keep an eye on it - my suspicion would be back with the Brise in some shape or form. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted June 5, 2006 Leadership Team Share Posted June 5, 2006 Duncan - your 1400K has a different IACV setup than later 1600 & 1800 cars. It's actually a stepper motor built into the throttle body that opens and closes the butterfly slightly - that's the noise you'll be hearing. If everthing's ok, when the ignition is turned on, the butterfly shaft will visibly move. Turning the ignition off will cause it to move back .... both actions are powered, ie. the return action is not the result of a spring. The dreaded click can often be cured by adding an additional relay in the starter curcuit - do a search in the archives. Failing that, unfortunately it's a new starter. The latest Caterham offering is a direct swap and has the solenoid underneath rather than on top of the starter - hence well away from the manifold. I've ended up with new starter and additional relay - starts first time every time Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Mill Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 I'm facinated by this problem. Thus far I have had 3 occasions where the starter has not cranked the engine all of which were sorted instantly by turning off and re-keying. So no persistant problem yet. Interestingly though the car is a classic (standard exhaust) and has done only about 1300 miles and only a small fraction of that was hard pressed. So it looks as if it can do it with virtually new bits - certainly nothing looks cooked. It seems to me that various people have at various times replaced every component in the system for alternatives and yet still had the problem recur. Everything, that is, apart from the ring gear... and of course we are engaging that from the other side to 'normal' when the engine is in a tin top. Does anyone know if the ring gear teeth are shamfered on the other side to aid meshing? Having said that my daughter had the dreaded 'click' in a friends Rover 200 Colin Edited by - Colin Mill on 6 Jun 2006 07:07:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Does anyone know if the ring gear teeth are shamfered on the other side to aid meshing? I run the R500 flywheel - so isn't chamfered either side. Project Scope-Creep is live... Alcester Racing 7's Equipe - 🙆🏻™ Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanK Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hi All, Thanks for the collected wisdom of blatchat as always. I thought those voltages were low, so I bought some jump leads and tried jump starting from my Golf diesel: nothing. I think a fuse blew when I held the key in crank position. I've had a look in the owners manual, but can't see a fuse listed. Anyone know of one? So history of problem is: 1). Banner battery flattened by immobiliser over winter. Recharged it, but only got a click when I tried to crank. 2). Bought Powervamp (excellent service as Myles says). 3). Got car started and took it for a couple of long runs. 4). Left it connected (thinking I'd use it again in a couple of days -whoops!) 5). Tried it two weeks later - started fine, took it for a run, then parked it and disconnected the earth wire to battery. 6). Tried it yesterday after connecting up - terminals done up nice and tight. Fuel sender pump works, lights work, all seems ok but only a click when turned the key to crank. 7). While holding the key in crank position for several seconds (in desperation) something else made a tick noise, which sounded to me like a fuse blowing. 8). Now, although ignition lights come on, fuel pump doesn't come on with ignition, and even with jump start battery connected there's nothing. Any ideas? PS Colin, regarding ring gears I thought Angus had to replace his? PPS Stu, are there any cheaper options than the Caterham starter? £136 seems a bit steep! M7JVL 1.4K with clamshells (Sheep-liker's 'other half'!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Sounds as though the main ECU fuse has blown. Have a look & check; it's a 30 amp one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanK Posted June 6, 2006 Author Share Posted June 6, 2006 Cheers Mick, I'll check that next and then try jump starting again.... M7JVL 1.4K with clamshells (Sheep-liker's 'other half'!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Den Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Duncan - At one point, I think 15amp fuses were used for the main ECU fuse - Caterham then changed to a 30amp fuse. I understand they have been known to blow and I have taped a spare to the bulkhead - IIRC, a suggestion by Angus and Tessa. Den http://www.dens7.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Before buying a new starter motor test the voltage to the solonoid. The wire is so close to the exhaust that the wire inside the insulation gets burnt brittle causing very high resistance. I've seen 6v at the solonoid when 13.2v at the battery cable. Question for Chris. I've always considered a solonoid to be a relay so why would another relay in the circuit be required? Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here You and your seven to The French Blatting Company Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Norman You are quite correct in thinking the solenoid is a relay. It is, BUT because it has to pull in a massive pair of contacts to the starter motor it requires a large magnetic field (ie: a heavy duty coil) to achieve this. As a result, the solenoid draws a large current of around 20 amps. That means that a switch that directly switched the solenoid ON would have to be able to cope with this large current also. That's why there is (usually) an intermediate relay which is capable of switching in excess of 20 amps but which only requires a tiny current itself to close its contacts (~100mA). So the starter switch itself can therefore be a lower rated device. The ECU fuse (which used to be specified as a 20A version) was uprated by Caterham to 30A. This is because if the solenoid gets some dirt inside, or is hot, it can stick slightly inside (due to tight mechanical tolerances) and then requires an even larger current to overcome the increased physical resistance. Hence a 20A fuse would often blow in this situation. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted June 6, 2006 Share Posted June 6, 2006 Thanks Chris. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here You and your seven to The French Blatting Company Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanK Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 OK latest update: Mick was right - I'd blown the 20A fuse at the top of the fuse box. I confirmed this by changing it, and holding the key in crank position for about 10 seconds and finding I'd blown my replacement fuse! So the starter motor / solenoid is obviously pulling more than 20A whilst not doing anything other than making one click. Tonight I've removed the starter motor (after over an hours struggling to find a way to undo the upper allen key bolt next to the block - finally found that removing the HEGO sensor and using a combination of socket set extensions enabled me to get just enough torque on it to move it after soaking in WD40). Noticed that coolant seems to have been weeping from the heater hose connection and dripping onto the wires leading down to the starter motor, so I wonder if that's caused corrosion in the solenoid /starter? My car's a '95 1.4K series, and I've got a Lucas starter motor with solenoid mounted on top. I'm going to get it tested out at work (the joys of working for Ford!), but if I need a new one, anyone got any suggestions for something cheaper than Caterham's £136 replacement cost? Cheers, Duncan M7JVL 1.4K with clamshells (Sheep-liker's 'other half'!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 If it's the solenoid, just replace that, it cost me about £20 inc VAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanK Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 OK, I've got the starter motor checked out - solenoid seems to be ok, but I'm told the motor seems to be down on torque. It's a Lucas 26656B90. My local Lucas agent can do recon exchange units for £49.37+vat and told me that these units are fitted to Ford Scorpio/Granada 1.8 & 2.0L and Sierra/Sapphire 1987-1989 1.6 & 2.0L. If I'm thinking of fitting a long 4-1 or 4-2-1 exhaust system would I be better off to upgrade to Caterham's new starter with integrated solenoid to avoid the problem of cooking the solenoid as documented elsewhere? Duncan M7JVL 1.4K with clamshells (Sheep-liker's 'other half'!) See our Grand European Tour Photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Sorry Duncan can't answer your question but know how your feeling. Mine is so bad now I can't drive for more than a couple of miles and switch off without the dreaded click on re-start. Normally start car by putting leads across to a heavy duty battery placed beside the car in the garage. Always starts first time but have also tried same method after the click but with no joy. ☹️ Can't get any more frustrating or embarrassing than it is at the moment, especially after pulling into garage to fill up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Tony have you checked the voltage at the solonoid wire when it's clicking. Try a piece of wire from solonoid connector direct to battery Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here You and your seven to The French Blatting Company Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanK Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Hi Tony, Funnily enough my problem isn't with hot restart (which definitely seems to be a cooked solenoid problem - have you read Miles' "Alcester Racing 7's" excellent page on this? here). My problem seems to be that my starter motor itself has packed up for whatever reason. The latest Caterham starter motor includes a built in solenoid which is supposed to cure the hot restart problem. May be if you and I both need one we should start a bulk buy??? Duncan M7JVL 1.4K with clamshells (Sheep-liker's 'other half'!) See our Grand European Tour Photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanK Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 Hi Norman, Is that the big fat red wire? I saw your posts about this wire getting cooked and raising the resistance so I bought a new one from Halfrauds. I checked the resistance of old and new and found they're both the same on mine. Oh well, £136 for a new starter rather than £3.99 for a new wire.... Duncan M7JVL 1.4K with clamshells (Sheep-liker's 'other half'!) See our Grand European Tour Photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris W Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I'd be amazed if you could measure the resistance of the old and new wires unless they're both reading zero. If you got any reading, it would be too much. Imagine if the wire only had a resistance of 1/100th of an ohm and you could measure that with a home-type multimeter. With about 300 amps approx going into the starter motor, that would result in a voltage drop of 3v. I suspect what you were measuring was the contact resistance between the wire and the multimeter probes or the multimeter itself has a small offset from zero and doesn't read zero with its probes shorted together. Chris 2003 1.8K SV 140hp see it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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