Are caterham putting the best engine in their cars?

[Ivaan]

Interesting link to the Norwegian Seven Racing...anyone translate?

 

I'm sure there'd be a demand for a CC BEC.

[Jonathan Kay]

Translation courtesy of Google

 

Jonathan

[huwp]

I don't necessarily think that small capacity, turbocharged engines are the answer in a car like the 7.

 

I have a Polo GTI with a twin charged 1.4l engine. Yes, on a run I can see 45 or 50 mpg. Drive enthusiastically however and I get very low 20's. You really need to rag the car to get any performance out of it. MPG issues aside at least with twin-charging the powercomes on progressively.

 

I also wouldn't want an turbo to come on boost half way through a corner in a 7.

 

I like what Caterham are doing at the moment experimenting with superchargers.

[Martin J]

All this talk of Duratecs but where does it's smaller brother the sigma (or zetec se) fit into the equation?

Personally I think it's a brilliant engine that is also well proven on the track and seems robust & reliable.

 

[charlie_pank]

Power = burning more fuel per second = lower MPG. This means that the best way to maximize fuel economy is to make the engine relatively low power when cruising, but high-power for accelerating. It seems to me that in practice this would feel like driving a twin Turbo 1.4 engine, where you have to 'wring its neck' to find the power. What's wrong with this anyway , provided you've got the gearbox to back it up?

 

[Jonathan Kay]

If it hadn't been developed to its current state we'd see there's a lot wrong. Mechanical coupling of the thrust on the piston through a couple of bearings, conversion to circular motion, disconnection because the engine can't run from stationary, speed (or torque) matching because the dynamic range of the engine isn't as big as that of the vehicle, turning the drive through a right angle, matching the speed of the inner and outer wheel... it's a triumph of craft over logic.

 

Let's start again with electric drive and just avoid most of those problems. You can still get the energy storage density of petrol, but you can also optimise the ic engine for performance at one or a few speeds.

 

The Ampera/ Volt is going to test a lot of this in the ordinary car market, but how would ACBC use it in the 7 niche?

 

Jonathan

 

Edited by - Jonathan Kay on 6 Sep 2012 09:23:29

[DougBaker]

For "normal" cars I can see a future for electric. But the weight involved means that for small sports cars we are going to be using small efficient petrol engines for some time to come.

[Jonathan Kay]

Agreed, but how about a 7 with a small petrol engine with electric drive?

 

Jonathan

 

Edited by - Jonathan Kay on 6 Sep 2012 09:53:26

[DougBaker]

If you were trying to build a race car to compete within a set of rules and win maybe.

 

But for a car that is fun to drive rather than built for a purpose the noise an engine makes still contributes a lot to the driving experience. A slower car which sounds lovely will be far more fun to drive than something fast and silent or that just emits a continuous noise.

[Jonathan Kay]

Interesting point about the sound. We're certainly used to revvy sounds from fast cars.

 

But for use on public roads cars should be as quiet as possible because it affects other people.

 

And besides, after all the reduction in mass from electric drive you could add an enormous active sound system, and make your car sound like anything you want, as demonstrated by Lotus! Sounding like a Merlin might be popular on BC.

 

Jonathan

[irrotational]

Quoting Jonathan Kay: 

 

But for use on public roads cars should be as quiet as possible because it affects other people.

 

Yes!! you run them over when they step out in front of you because they can't hear you...

[Z3MCJez]

Quoting Martin Jeffrey: 

All this talk of Duratecs but where does it's smaller brother the sigma (or zetec se) fit into the equation?

Personally I think it's a brilliant engine that is also well proven on the track and seems robust & reliable.

If you've got enough oil in it ... Another one blew up this weekend at Snetterton.

 

Interestingly, I understand that the sigma in its current form is no longer in production, although a variable valve derivative will be available for a few more years. I expect that we'll see sigma engines in lower-powered Caterhams until at least the middle of the decade.

 

Jez

[andy couchman]

So, of the various engines, it's just the Duratecs and crossflows still being made?

 

 

Andy

[Martin J]

Quoting Z3MCJez: 

Quoting Martin Jeffrey: 

All this talk of Duratecs but where does it's smaller brother the sigma (or zetec se) fit into the equation?

Personally I think it's a brilliant engine that is also well proven on the track and seems robust & reliable.

If you've got enough oil in it ... Another one blew up this weekend at Snetterton.

 

Interestingly, I understand that the sigma in its current form is no longer in production, although a variable valve derivative will be available for a few more years. I expect that we'll see sigma engines in lower-powered Caterhams until at least the middle of the decade.

 

Jez

 

Jez, had he not checked the oil level or was it just using a lot? Or had the oil degraded due to over fueling?

[charlie_pank]

Quoting andy couchman: 

So, of the various engines, it's just the Duratecs and crossflows still being made?

 

 

Andy

 

I think Yamaha's still making R1s

[hufggfg]

Quoting huwp: 

I don't necessarily think that small capacity, turbocharged engines are the answer in a car like the 7.

 

[...]

 

I like what Caterham are doing at the moment experimenting with superchargers.

 

Completely agree with both these sentiments. It's not the torque profile that's the problem with the turbo engines, it's the throttle response. In a car like the 7 the immediate throttle response is a huge part of the driving experience, and I don't think a turbo engine would suit it at all.

 

As a race car, it might be very effective, but to maximise driver enjoyment, not so much.

 

I used to own a Renault Megane R26.R... agreed by most journos to be one of the best handling cars out there (certainly for the money). Obviously there are a lot of differences between this and the 7, but there was 1 big thing I didn't like about the R26.R and that was the lack of throttle response. One track it was fast and fun, but the fact that there just isn't that immediate connection to the right hand pedal really removes a huge amount of the day-to-day driving enjoyment.

[EFA]

I once thought about fitting a small rotary diesel engine to my car. Search the archives for "Randcam".

[Z3MCJez]

Quoting Martin Jeffrey: 

Quoting Z3MCJez: 

Quoting Martin Jeffrey: 

All this talk of Duratecs but where does it's smaller brother the sigma (or zetec se) fit into the equation?

Personally I think it's a brilliant engine that is also well proven on the track and seems robust & reliable.

If you've got enough oil in it ... Another one blew up this weekend at Snetterton.

 

Interestingly, I understand that the sigma in its current form is no longer in production, although a variable valve derivative will be available for a few more years. I expect that we'll see sigma engines in lower-powered Caterhams until at least the middle of the decade.

 

Jez

 

Jez, had he not checked the oil level or was it just using a lot? Or had the oil degraded due to over fueling?

 

Martin - I don't know to be honest, but I'm told it went in Coram which is a LONG R-hander. Mine also went in a long R-hander and symptoms sounded similar. I guess the oil pick-up is on the RHS. it's a well maintained car, so I would doubt oil quality issues.

 

I run my car to breathe some oil out into the catch tank now ...

 

Jez