Brake Pipe advice please

[KAR 120C]

Hi all,

 

I am replacing the brake pipes on my S3 7. Standard set up with GT6 and Ford Sierra front and rear calipers. I have sourced new brass fittings and I have an SP flaring tool. I want to use Cupro Nickel brake pipe (3/16"). does anyone have any view on manufactures to consider and those to avoid please?Additionally, sources would be helpful although I can probably sort that!

Any help gratefully received.

 

Michael 

[OldAndrewE]

Firstly I doubt if you will know who the manufacturer is, just the brand it is being supplied under.  Also copper pipe is an alternative and possibly easier to work

[JP]

When I did my Land rover pipes I got the pipes and tools from Vehicle Wiring Products - I think I went with copper pipe IIRC.

[SLR No.77]

Kunifer (copper nickel) is the preferable pipe to use, easy to work with and I believe it doesn't work harden to the same extent as 100% copper. Lots of decent suppliers.

Stu.

[7 wonders of the world]

Great  opportunity to replaced the poorly engineered and dangerous rigid rear caliper line with braided lines 

[JP]

#5 - I have just had this option brought to my attention while ordering new parts for my rebuild.  When I stripped my rigid line off the De Dion tube the other weekend it all looked absolutely fine.  What is the issue here and why is the standard set up considered dangerous?

[paul richards]

There is movement of the calipers in use. The calipers flex under braking but moreover they move as the pads wear. This puts strain on a rigid brake pipe possibly leading to fracture or cracking. In addition with a flexible braided hose it is much easier to remove the caliper for pad changing and maintenance. 

[JP]

#7 - thank you.  Something else to add to the shopping list...presumably you just cable tie them to the top of the De Dion in the same way as the rigid tube is fixed?

Out of interest, are new Caterhams now supplied with flexible rear pipes?

[Roger Ford]

#6 wish I still had the video from where someone's solid rear lines failed at Pembrey and he barreled into me at 90mph in the hairpin. It was an effective way of slowing his car, but it cost me a new chassis and a complete rebuild.

The problem is that you bend the pipes slightly every time you move the calipers, and over time this causes stress fractures. On a road car where the pads and discs are changed once in a blue moon, it may not be a big issue. It definitely is for track/race cars, and we've banned the solid rear lines in the Grads ever since that incident.

[JP]

OK.  Now I am convinced...

[KAR 120C]

Thank you folk for the invaluable information.

I shall be using Cunifer as opposed to Copper brake pipe because of the work hardening argument. Why copper exists as an option I am unsure and never did consider this. Regarding the flexible lines on the de Dion tube to the calipers. I have now double checked my "Ford Sierra" calipers and indeed the brake line has to give to allow for pad wear. Whatever were CC thinking with this design? How could this have been overlooked?

The answer to my question about brake pipe brand remains open if anyone has any views or knowledge?

I prematurely posted another request (in another post) regarding a Ford type 9 gearbox remote to bring the gear lever back into the cockpit. does anyone know how this is mounted on the chassis' with a center handbrake please? I know how it was done on the earlier (late 1980's) under dash handbrake cars. Is it the same remote for the later spec chassis? My car is an S3 by the way.

 

Thank you

Michael

[ScottR400D]

#11. Maybe I'm incorrectly assuming but it sounds like your rear solid brake lines have lasted a while, to the point where everything else needs changing too?

Maybe the design does actually work?

How old is your car? How long have the brake lines been on it?

 

 

 

[2cv7]

As a point of interest, or not..My Citroen 2cv has no brake hoses, only metal pipes.

[StevehS3]

I am surprised they pass the IVA with rigid brake lines to the rear calipers.

[aerobod - near CYYC]

Doesn't the 2CV have inboard brakes at the front (with no need for flexing) and it looks like about 15 turns of rigid brake pipe to minimise the stresses in the rear pipe?

[2cv7]

It does. Just a different way of engineering something. 

[John Vine]

#8:  ...presumably you just cable tie them to the top of the De Dion in the same way as the rigid tube is fixed?

I used small plastic P-clips and pop-rivetted them in the same DD holes.

JV

[JP]

I don't think I have any holes in my DD.  My old rigid pipe was zip tied on the to of the tube as per the assembly guide.  I guess the main thing is to ensure that they do not slip around the front of the tube or that any loop at the caliper end risks rubbing on the rim..

[KAR 120C]

I'm not sure rigid brake lines to a moving caliper would be considered "Good engineering Practice", despite what the French may do! Clearly there is an issue hence the flexible alternative. Putting coils into the line will alleviate stresses but the rigid pipe is still being worked. Maybe not sufficiently to cause fractures but I know which way I am now going. 

 

Thank you all for your comments and extremely interesting posts.

Michael

[2cv7]

C'est bon, on peut arrêter.

[paul richards]

Originally rigid brake pipes were simply attached to the de dion tube with cable ties. Not sure when, but things changed and for IVA they had to be fixed to the de dion tube using P clips riveted to the tube. All newer cars will therefore have P clips.

[paul richards]

"I prematurely posted another request (in another post) regarding a Ford type 9 gearbox remote to bring the gear lever back into the cockpit. does anyone know how this is mounted on the chassis' with a center handbrake please? I know how it was done on the earlier (late 1980's) under dash handbrake cars. Is it the same remote for the later spec chassis? My car is an S3 by the way."

I think the remote gear lever was only necessary on earlier cars fitted with the Escort 4 speed gearbox which I think had an integral bellhousing. The remote was needed as the gearbox was shorter and the gear lever would be under the dash. The type 9 gearbox brings the gear lever further back making the remote unnecessary. If the gear lever on a type 9 was further. Ack it would interfere with the Centre handbrake.

[JP]

Thanks Paul #21.  Mine is a 1999 - the rigid tube was just cable tied to the DD.  I'll p-clip on the rebuild I think.

Although I have the original build manual for my car, I think I'll cross refer to the newer guides when I rebuild for any updates like this...

[Nigel Riches]

As Paul (post 22) says, the remote was fitted to the 4 speed cars with the Escort gearbox with integral bellhousing, as the stick would be buried far forward under the dash without.

However I have a 1982 car with the remote and a Type 9 gearbox, so the stick is as it was with the 4 speed box, alongside the steering wheel. It was a close fit and needed some tweaking to the mechanism. It also needed a different rear gearbox mount, that work was carried out at Arch Motors

 If you don't have the necessary gearstick mounting then I don't think you will be able the fit the gearstick back as it was in the 4 speed cars. 

I have a picture or three if you BM me I'll flick them across. If I'm not defeated by technology.

All good fun.

Cheers.

Nigel.

[paul richards]

My car is also 1999/2000 and was cable tied originally. Not sure how much rebuild you are planning but later rear wheel bearings/ hubs are a single bearing and much better. Similarly front hubs were upgraded on later cars with a much bigger and better bearing. Both can be retro fitted. Chris Mintoft at Redline Components is the man to supply.