New Caterham prices up - lack of supply

[TomB]

If Caterham don't make an EV or at the very least a hybrid they won't be manufacturing new cars post 2030. When older members / owners are hanging their steering wheels up in maybe 15-20 years, there will be a new generation of buyer who has more familiarity with EV and will expect that, not an oily inefficient banging thing that needs servicing at regular intervals.  What was it the dinosaurs said - adapt or die? 

As much as I want CC to succeed, it seems a very steep hill to climb with a tiny engineering team.  The investment needed must be huge.  I couldn't attend the webinar last week - have they bolstered their engineering team or are they partnering to produce something electrical / hybrid?  

 

[420R]

They intend to buy in a contemporary drivechain.

Sure the thing will function as a car.   That works for a Toyota people carrier.  
 

For a Caterham I'm out.  But as I said above I'm old school.  
 

 

[ScottR400D]

#26 As an 'older' member who has had an EV, alongside the 7 and another 'oily, inefficient banging thing' in the garage, for almost two years now I would say I do have concerns about how an EV 7 would turn out.

As an everyday, functional A-B (as long as B isn't too far from A) the EV is great. No need to worry about short runs causing issues, cheaper to fuel. Servicing costs are about the same as an ICE ( as most are; Tesla might say you don't need to service, no one else does and I think Tesla make up for that in other ways) 

But is the EV fun? No. Practical, functional, perfect for what we use it for but not fun or particularly rewarding to drive. Unless you find optimising range and avoiding touching the brake pedal rewarding. 

There seems little doubt that EVs will take over from ICE and as battery tech evolves, weights fall, range increases and the charging infrastructure improves they'll become supremely functional ways of getting around, but they'll struggle to ever have the kind of character the 7 offers. IMO. 

I agree entirely with your final paragraph. 

 

[420R]

Let's not forget one thing.

The cost.    An EV set up will be a lot more money than a Duratec.   Will prospective buyers stump up maybe £60k for an electric 7?  

The battery will not be light either. 

Caterham have to try to adapt or they will wither away. 
 

 

 

 

[TomB]

I've been re-reading an article and the comments section of an article on Pistonheads from last year.  Until the point when the comments go off track, its an interesting read again.  

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1932529&i=0

I think the weight could be red herring - engines, gearbox, diff and 30 litres of unleaded together must weigh ~150-200kg.  An architecture along the lines of batteries in the engine bay and tunnel, central motor where the diff is located might not add much more than a passenger would to a current car.  With the ability to move weight around more easily than with a liquid fuel, Id expect a weight distribution could be maintained.

I don't think the issue is whether it could be done - its a problem with cost, investment, risk and acceptance.  How does a company heavily invested in the past, pivot to a future facing EV world to attract customers in a decade without alienating their traditional customer who may be wedded to a tradition sports car?  While its served them well thus far I fear it could prevent the change thats needed to survive.  

[ScottR400D]

#29 The cost will likely be a significant issue. It would be interesting to know the average price paid for a new 7 over recent years. I get the feeling that more less expensive cars were sold than the higher end  

As for the weight of the battery, I guess that will be a balancing act between range and mass. If you give the car a 100 mile range the battery needn't be too big but then it won't be much use on TDs or for touring.

Fag packet maths suggest EVs are around 30-40% heavier than an ICE counterpart which might put a 7 around 750/800kg? 

It's going to be interesting. 

[SLR No.77]

Re #31, a Tesla Model 3 (Performance or Long Range) is 6.5% heavier than a BMW 330d X-Drive, which is likely the nearest equivalent in BMW's range. It's nearly 30% heavier than a Porsche 997 but clearly the 997 is intended to be a 2+2 sports car rather than a small saloon.

Back on track though, material and component costs are rising dramatically and Caterham Cars is not immune to the increases suffered elsewhere, I very much doubt anyone could expect to place an order now, for delivery end of year, and not see a price rise by point of delivery. It's just unrealistic.

Stu.

[ScottR400D]

#32 I was comparing an E Niro 1812kg, with an ICE Niro 1414kg. Same car 28% heavier. 

[420R]

#30

To make it financially work for Caterham the CEO McDonald said they need to buy in a drive system.

To engineer a set up that has bespoke tailored batteries all over the place we can assume will be prohibitively expensive. 
 

An EV 7 is going to happen.  
 

Climbing in and using a floor mounted potentiometer to regulate speed as the thing zips off in total silence is not my idea of a particularly pleasing fulfilling experience.    Gone then will be the day where you drop a couple of cogs before the apex and nail it on the exit.

Each to their own but not my bag...

 

[GulfSeven]

This is the issue isn't it? Ignoring the technical viability and the cost, does anyone actually want a heavy, silent Seven? Don't we all buy them for the lightweight handling and noise? They're not bought as A to B transport.

[420R]

Yes.  The issue is the car will be soulless.

Unfortunately many aspects of modern life have become achingly dull and over regulated.

The Seven will be just another PC casualty.  
 

I have no interest in the BBC,  the Woke agenda and equally no interest in an EV Seven!   

 

 

[Billy.Whizz]

Ordered my 420R June 2020 (factory build) collected car 11 months later in May 2021, just been on configurator and it's gone up over £3000 to around £47500, so if you want to add RBTB's, flat floor set up and a de-cat you will paying well over £50000.  

[MarkD]

Slightly OT, but one question for me is how long after 2030 will it still be possible to freely drive our existing 7s? Will ICE cars be slowly taxed off the road or generally made unviable to own? Longer term what about the supply of petrol, I'm sure many current petrol stations will start to look at replacing pumps with plugs for EVs even though there may well still be a lot of ICE cars on the roads. 

[ScottR400D]

#34. Maybe it doesn't have to be like that. Why can't an electric motor just run through a regular gearbox etc? You could even retain a clutch. 

Thing is, unless CC develop that themselves who will? Hard to see any third party wanting to develop unnecessary tech. 

[ScottR400D]

The average age of cars on UK roads is estimated to be about 8.5 years. We can all see 05/06/07 cars out there, still looking very viable at 16/17 years old. 

Hybrids can be produced until when? 2035 or even later? So there'll likely be quite a number of ICE about mid century. 

Governments will try to tax people out of them but with the price of EVs still out of reach for millions it won't be a vote winner. 

 

[edo]

They really are ******* of the highest order. You signed a contract, paid a hefty deposit and 5 months later they ask for £2.5k more.

It shows their absolute arrogance and contempt for their customers, not to mention not having a decent handle on their costs. 

I found my buying experience nothing short of disgraceful. A bunch of more clueless ******** I have not come across more, and I've dealt with most manufacturers, new and used, including Lotus and TVR.....

They don't deserve their success and their attitude will come back to haunt them at some point. 

(*Edited by Moderator)

[ScottR400D]

#41 Not impressed then edo?

I would say that, as far as I know, most manufacturers retain the right to increase prices on long lead time vehicles. 

I never had to deal with Dartford when I bought my car, they had Midlands then, but my experiences since haven't given much evidence to argue with your point of view........

[420R]

Wait until you maybe have to claim on your two year warranty.

Easier to go for a dump in the queens handbag than getting anything out of them.

Agony..

[edo]

I've ordered a few longish lead time vehicles, Porsche being one, and they havent passed on price rises, and even held part exchange offers for longer....

[edo]

Urgh.

I'll be going via a decent dealer.

Car is going to Williams in a few weeks for first service, and to align the headlights that were delivered less than finger tight!

The conversation with them has so far been very good. 

[Geoff Brown]

EDO - Do not worry you will receive good service from Williams. Having to pander to Morgan & Lotus owners their standards are reasonably high.

 

[edo]

Fingers crossed!

[Geoff Brown]

EDO - Trust me. Being local I have visited Williams & always came away satisfied with what is on offer. Which is more than I can say about CC in any shape or form. 

Frankly, over the last ten years or so I have become totally disenchanted with the way CC go about quality standards, service & customer care. 

The 7EV could kill them off.

[420R]

It's going to be very tricky for them.

I think they made £20k net last year profit.

Staying in any kind of profit was their aim given the Convid debacle.

It's now a Japanese problem!!    

 

[edo]

When I look at the cost of the car in my garage in terms of components, its staggeringly pathetic they aren't making a profit when you consider the complete lack of development costs on something that hasn't changed in decades bar the engines they buy in.