Titan LSD - Warranty claim

[Jeff210R]

I have a Supersport R 210 with 5000 miles on the clock which is fitted with a Titan LSD. I am no expert on the performance of LSDs; however I have drained the oil and it is a filthy black liquid!  Additionally I have carried out the following check,  Wheel rotation check. With the rear of the car raised rotate one wheel. The opposite wheel should turn in the same direction. Non rotation or rotation in the opposite direction of the opposite wheel indicates possible internal failure of the LS unit.  One wheel turned in the wrong direction and one did not rotate at all!

The dealer has indicated he is prepared to refurbish the unit under warranty but only if the strip down confirms "failure".  Otherwise I would be liable for costs.

I should be grateful for anyone confirming my opinion that the bloody thing is knackered?  And that this could reasonably be considered a failure since I have only done a couple of hundred miles since purchase?

Additionally I am considering replacing the Titan with a Quaife.  How would the labour time for that compare with refurbishing the Titan?

Look forward to replies as ever.

Jeff

[Wrightpayne]

Have you read the previous posts on the forum regarding short service intervals of the diff?

[Jeff210R]

Certainly have!

[ChrisC]

Jeff have you done a pre load check?  But agree it does sound like a rebuild is required. 
What age is your supersport R.

[7 wonders of the world]

For a small amount more the Tracsport offers a significant performance advantage over the ATB Quaife....

[Jeff210R]

Hi Chris

It's a 2014. Since turning the wheel on one side doesn't impart any movement to the other side at all there isn't presumably any point in a pre-load?  Or am I missing something (which is quite possible)?  Your blog is awesome btw!

Jeff

[ChrisC]

I fear your right, and we both know where this is going.  The only benefit of a preload check would be to give a quantifiable number which you can used to pursue your warranty claim with.  Obviously if you don't have the socket or torque wrench don't worry about it, but if you do then it could be valuable information for your claim.

I have to ask, who (names not needed) are you intending to pursue the warranty claim with?   5000 miles isn't a lot, but age wise its long left CC manufacturers warranty. 

Thank you for you kind words on the blog.  I hope you get your diff sorted.  

[Jeff210R]

Have replied privately Chris.

[ChrisC]

No, I think because I pressed the reply button you get an email ;-).  And I missed your PM :-) 

[ScottR400D]

#7 Chris, if the OP has only done a couple of hundred miles since acquiring the car, presumably he hasn't had it long either and should have a straightforward claim against the dealer. 

Not a cat in hell's chance of a claim against CC. 

[Geoff Brown]

If you have read my extensive thread 'BMW/Titan LSD Viability' the symptoms that you describe concur that the Titan is in fact dead. No need to check the pre load torque.

As far as warranty claims go the car will have to be still within the warranty period. If it is just outside then CC may offer a good will gesture but be prepared to battle for it. Any further down the years then forget it.

Do not re fit a Titan. Either go for a Tracsport unit or as you mention an ATB unit. Cost I would imagine would be relatively the same but remember whatever you do it is advisable that all the seals & bearings are changed as the black oil soup contains carbon from the clutch plates so would have acted like a fine cutting paste. 

[ScottR400D]

It's a 7 year old car, Geoff. CC won't have the slightest interest. 

[ScottR400D]

One thing to watch out for is the dealer only having the LSD rebuilt and not the rest of the assembly. 

As Geoff says, the assembly now really needs all new bearings and seals etc and that will almost double the price of the rebuild to £900 or so. 

The Tracsport unit will increase the cost even further as will an ATB, though that will be less than the Tracsport. 

I would think a bearing replacement plus Tracsport would be £1600/1700 and with an ATB maybe £900/1100? 

[7 wonders of the world]

The Quaife will be nearer £1100, however the performance difference between the ATB and the Tracsport is massive...... and although more expensive is a no brainer really.

[Wrightpayne]

Happy ATB user here. I would investigate / understand the pros / cons of each for the type of driving you do.

 

[ScottR400D]

I would agree, even as a Tracsport fan, if I wasn't planning to do track days or if I was sure I'd stay off the big kerbs, I'd certainly consider an ATB. 

[7 wonders of the world]

But spending £1100 for something that offers little more in the way of performance over a stock open diff seems a poor deal.....

A correctly designed and built plate unit wins hands down every single time....

[Wrightpayne]

Is that according to the gospel of St Perks? 

He was happy to take my money to supply and fit one. Funny they are rubbish now he has his own product in the market place!

[7 wonders of the world]

Wow that's pretty narrow minded Ian.....

It's no secret the design of the ATB cannot offer anything like the traction of a plate LSD.... even Quaife won't offer a figure regarding percentage of lock up the ATB can offer.

I also speak from experience having driven cars with ATB's fitted

[Wrightpayne]

Neil,

And recommending a Tracsport diff (or gear kit) in every scenario is open minded? I'm just expressing a different opinion.

I've driven my seven with an open diff and with the ATB and it is significantly better with the ATB. More sure footed, gets the power down better and will also do donuts (not that its a primary consideration for purchase) but shows it will continue to put power to both wheels even when traction is broken, rather than spin up one wheel like an open diff.

For many, fitting an ATB completely suits their needs, doesn't need setting up to suit the weight of the car, doesn't have friction plates that wear out, doesn't need special oil additives, isn't noisy (I know not all plate diffs are graunchy), doesn't have belleville washers that fail and is basically fit and forget. That's quite appealing for people who are not trying to squeeze every last ounce of performance from their car.

If I was sprinting or doing track days every other week I'd definitely be taking your advice and fitting a properly set up plate LSD (rules permitting).

Ian   

[7 wonders of the world]

For many, fitting an ATB completely suits their needs, doesn't need setting up to suit the weight of the car, doesn't have friction plates that wear out, doesn't need special oil additives, isn't noisy (I know not all plate diffs are graunchy), doesn't have belleville washers that fail and is basically fit and forget. That's quite appealing for people who are not trying to squeeze every last ounce of performance from their car.

 

Whilst some of the above comments are certainly true of the Titan this is down to poor design, and your broad brush statement does not apply to Tracsport, Drexler or ZF designs, 

The setting up is done on initial build and unless your preferences change is not touched again

There are millions of high performance tintops on the roads collectively covering mega mileage using plates - how many people have had one rebuilt due to wear, their life span is not to be confused with other friction materials on a car brakes and clutches etc

Special oil - Castrol B373 is £10 per litre far cheaper than the 'standard' Motul CC use in their open diffs

Noisy - not if you buy a well designed version - CC has a history of supplying noisy open Sierra final drives, due entirely to the 3rd party who reconditioned them, factory built units were silent.

Failing bellevilles - again a lack of understanding of the differences in design, its so far from the truth, and in the case of the Titan a serious lack of understanding of how a belleville spring is designed to operate - don't blame the spring blame the designer !

I always look for well designed and well engineered products that work, Steve has sound design across his range, back in the day we stopped using Quaiffe in our cars due to repeated failures (gearkits) which resulted in retirements - the design that caused these failures still hasn't changed !

In terms of performance gain v financial investment made there is a very clear winner, 

You really should try a well built plate unit, I'll take you for a blat one day   

 

[Alan Bowler]

ATB was fine for me for a few years - the quietness and "fit and forget" is appealing. Certainly behaved like an LSD. 10 years so far with a Titan, and no issues, touch wood. Less than 155 bhp though. No experience of Tracsport.

[7 wonders of the world]

Out of interest Alan, hove you checked the preload on your Titan - and what sort of mileage and use has it seen ...?

[David_Long]

I think we need to calm down a bit here. There are many users out there that will vouch for the Titan - the problem is that those that have had problems are very vocal about it on this forum. Any diff that has a mechanism in it to restrict movement between wheels will wear, so keeping an eye on LSD performance is a sensible thing to do.  This is more important in light sport cars where wheel loadings are low and these units work harder than in the heavier cars.  In my experience, Titan is no worse than any other LSD units - in fact it is the best performing diff I've used. As said on the other thread, when Titan first emerged it was considered the best thing since sliced bread and won universal praise. The later carbon plate versions were clearly a mistake, but that in part was due to customer request (Caterham?) for a less 'race' and more 'road friendly' unit. I don't buy the poor Belleville spring design argument, (but perhaps the machining to size is not ideal) and there appears (I stand to be corrected) no failures of them in sintered plate units. 

So lets not scare people into the expense of replacing these unit when an overhaul (and upgrade to sintered plates if required) will achieve equally good results.

[ChrisC]

Agreed. 

It's like we have a new splinter group, the Tracsportati.