620R cooling

[Mark w]

Neil

As i said above its not perfect but it does improve on the current situation . 

Show me a photo of a modified aluminium thermostat housing in situ with the standard  intercooler pipework fitted and i will believe you .

 

[7 wonders of the world]

Mark,

Since I run a NA Duratec thats a tricky one, however with the photos Mark (IOM) took there is room to creatively engineer a solution, yes it's tight - but possible

Wether you believe that or not is irrelevant.

 

[Mark w]

Neil

Ive just measured the gap and its about 25mm, ideally the pipe would point backwards but if it did that it would prevent the top bolt of the thermostat housing being put in place .The gap gets smaller as you move towards the back of the car as the intercooler pipework runs at an oblique angle .Its all very tight .

 

Ive just come across this which adds a vent to the rad top but otherwise appears to follow my thinking , the header tank is plumbed into the radiator bottom hose .  

 

 

[7 wonders of the world]

Interesting.....

Could just be poorly drawn but the orange bypass hose does not go into the bypass pipe by the pump (the block mounted pipe) this would appear to be the pipe adjacent to the 'P' in the word pump....

instead it seems to indicate that this orange hose goes to the 16mm inlet on the plastic OE stat housing.... 

Also assuming this is using the OE plastic stat housing, plumbing the expansion bottle return (green) into the 32mm rad return hose with a T is also wrong as this circuit is a dead end untill the stat start to open...... the bottle return should be plumbed into the 16mm plastic as this is a open circuit irrespective of stat position therefore the bottle and or heater always have a flow circuit.

 

[Mark w]

I think the bypass is just badly drawn as the text covers the principle correctly . 
 

I know what you mean about the expansion bottle connection but provided the system is filled methodically , maybe with a temporary air bleed on the bypass circuit it should be ok given the alum housing seems to bleed a bit on its own . In any event it is a solution to returning more hot water to the block when the thermostat is partly open which may keep temperature up a bit .

 

if anyone manages to successfully modify the thermostat housing please post .

 

 

[Titanium7]

Just back from Oakmere following the first 1000m service. I asked to investigate two things.

1. The 'Rev Hanging' when changing gear. Response was it was the Supercharger air induction still under pressure as there is no dump valve. (Not sure about this, I have a theory it might be in the mapping to burn up unused fuel)

2. The Over cooling. It was sitting at an indicated 50C at 3000rpm all the way there and only rising when at traffic lights. Response was the thermostat was constantly open or, there was no thermostat! They are contacting CC for permission to investigate further under warranty. 

[Mark w]

Re item 1 i found that this went away when i had carefully set the throttle body to bleed the correct amount of air at idle. The throttle bodies come to CC pre set but in my case it was too far open causing the ECU to hunt around as it was trying to maintain the set idle speed .

For anyone thats got Easymap the factory proceedure was:- Remove the throttle cable ( or slacken it right off ) , fully close the throttle by easing off the stop , set the TPS voltage to  0.40V ,open the throttle  to 0.54V .This is supposed to give the correct flow of air at idle with your foot off the pedal , you might find you need a tad less air to avoid an idle speed thats high .

When i looked at the map, load site 0 was 0.57V so having set the correct air flow i tweeked the TPS position to accord with the first load site so that the initial throttle pedal movement engaged the correct portion of the map. 

 

Keep us updated on point 2 

[Mark w]

Having found a manufacturer who can resolve the rear water outlet design requirements i  am still hunting for a solution  for the expansion bottle connection into the thermostat housing .Given the space constraints and the position of the existing welding 

what do the engineers amongst us think about drilling and tapping the aluminium thermostat housing to take a Banjo connection for the expansion bottle connection ?

Space constraints mean that a 16mm ID pipe connector  is out of the question but this might fit . 3/8 NPT into the housing with an AN8 connector that would take a barbed hose connector .

[7 wonders of the world]

As previous stated 1/2" hose will be fine even for a heater arrangement,though banjos do reduce flow a little,

plenty of reduced hoes in straight and elbow format to form all the usual source to take the size down from the bottle too.

You can still buy Ford 90 degree water elbows on ebay, just drill and tapped the rear housing and your away, 

you could get a -8 male welded onto the ally stat housing and get the little area inside welded up at the same time them use a compat 90 degree fitting which can be removed to access the housing fixing this is preferable as will be marginal on material for tapping as some has been machined away on the inside for the extra bleed (the part you need to blank off)

Easily available form the people who make radaitors and coolers etc - Ralloy, AH Fabrication, Brise etc they will certainly be one near you. 

 

 

[aerobod - near CYYC]

That should do the job. Will probably need to spot-face the surface to remove a bit of the weld next to the main radiator hose outlet on the housing so that the banjo attachment bolt can seat with a copper washer. As it is for the expansion bottle, the flow restriction using the 3/8" NPT shouldn't be a problem, as it only really needs to be bigger than the 5/16" bleed hose to prevent any flow constriction.

[Mark w]

you could get a -8 male welded onto the ally stat housing and get the little area inside welded up at the same time them use a compat 90 degree fitting which can be removed to access the housing fixing this is preferable as will be marginal on material for tapping as some has been machined away on the inside for the extra bleed (the part you need to blank off)

 

ive sent the dimension restraint info to a number of suppliers and as you cannot use a screwed elbow fitting you need to fit an adaptor into the housing and then fit an elbow to it , even the compact elbows are too big to fit in the space . That's why I started looking at banjo fittings ( on the suggestion of one of the suppliers )

[7 wonders of the world]

the bleed hose is restricted down in the bottle neck anyway to about 4mm to prevent over filling at high rpm.

my thought was a to use a small rectanglular block welded over the outlet position drill thro the housing and drill along its length forming a 90 degree internal water gallery, weld a suitable JIC male on the end then use a swivel 90 fitting as you can position the ally block near vertical to gain space and clear the mounting bolt.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AN-8-AN8-8-JIC-AN-08-Male-Aluminium-Weld-On-Fitting-Round-Base/171317996210?hash=item27e3592ab2:g:MqoAAOxy43FRa4b4

[Mark w]

For example , these don't fit , the projection is too great 

[7 wonders of the world]

The vertical option is #162 will though,

If you try the banjo option i would have the whole of the cut out weld up, just looked at your photos and it looks like its about 4mm deep, this would be to your advantage when tapping it.

 

[Mark w]

I am going to order some weld on fittings and mock up something in wood to see if it fits .

it might have to be a weld on spout onto a block ala #162 as the bolt on fittings ( onto welded male ) need space to turn the nut which then increases the size of the block needed .....

maybe the smaller of these ?

something in between these sizes might be better but I've not found one yet .

[Mark w]

[7 wonders of the world]

Here you go,

10mm

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-8-10MM-Aluminium-WELD-ON-BARB-Push-On-Tail-Hose-Fitting-Adapter-Fuel-Oil-Tank-/271508444002

13mm

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-2-13MM-Aluminium-WELD-BARB-Push-Tail-Hose-Fitting-Adapter-Fuel-Oil-Tank-/271381264862?hash=item3f2f9579de

[7 wonders of the world]

with no heater the 10mm will be fine,

with heater preferably 13mm just to keep SWMBO toasty   

[CtrMint]

Well guys it's certainly fascinating to see the engineering taking place to solve this issue.  I've also had a response from CC on the matter, but isn't helpful as yet.  I doubt they are going to approach the matter in a similar fashion.

I've also reached a point where I'm completely put off driving the car.  Part of this stems from not being able to blank of the rad.  As far as I see doing so, even if I thought it was an acceptable solution, is  only acceptable for circuit use.  On a circuit you are going to experience on average the same ambient temps, although airflow could change depending on the layout.  For me the car will spend 95% on road, probably more since covid.  Not only that I'll be using the TT course so going from sea level at sub 70mph to over the mountain slightly quicker.  The mountain is much higher, and is always much colder in terms of ambients and certainly faster.   The net result is that they are two significantly different scenarios requiring different levels of blocking.  Do I have to get out of the car in Ramsey and modify of the rad cover?   The truth is that's a major issue, but not the worst of it, I'm just spending my entire time watching the temp gauge, wondering if everything is at temp!  I may not be the most technical, but I do care for my cars, and I understand the importance of having your fluids at the correct temps, so the whole thing plays on my mind.  
 

I don't have the engineering experience or know how to customize the car and solve the issue.  Any 3rd party solution seems very much a work in progress so not something I could pursue.

Where does that leave me, I've parked my car up, luckily I have my 420 for road use.  I've gone back to Oakmere asking to trade in the car, I'm going to get back in a Lotus for track days. 58k pounds and only 650 miles. What a joke.

I'd just like to say thank you to everyone in the community that has contributed.  Your assistance has been critical in enabling me to understand what is happening.  Although my contribution to the thread has been minimal, certainly as the OP, that's not a reflection of the benefit gained,  only that it's become way more technical than my abilities.

time for some serious 420 blats!

Cheers

Mark

 

 

 

[Mark w]

That's a shame .

Neww water outlet is approx £125 , other parts about £25 .£200 for a new thermostat outlet if you don't modify the existing .
 

I am just looking for someone who can aluminium weld and I should have a solution .

[Doctor]

https://customautofabrications.co.uk

Found these guys up here in Blackpool. I'm sure there is plenty down south. 

[ScottR400D]

#169

That’s a shame, though entirely understandable. CC can be incredibly disappointing sometimes. 

Do you mind telling me from whom you had a response? I’ve mailed both Derek Hewlett and Simon Lambert with a couple of straightforward questions and had no response at all. No answer to phone calls either, 

I love my 7 when it’s right, and to be fair, that’s been most of the time until my recent diff issue. I’d never buy another though and wouldn't ever recommend anyone else did without a full understanding of the weaknesses of some models and CC themselves. I’ve seen too much  

Very disappointing.

 

 

[Doctor]

Hi Mark, trading in sounds like a bit of a shame - it is all fixable as Duratec is still ubiquitous performance engine. CC has been getting a lot of bad press here recently and most of the issues are genuine. There is one thing, however, that I would like to point out - not many manufacturers would be able to make a car with the performance of the 620 within the budget of £55.000-£60.000 They need to make some profit, otherwise we would have nothing to drive. CC cuts many corners on the way and these shortcuts are flirting with the reliability to certain extent. In case of 620 maybe they've pushed it a bit too far. But it is all fixable, it is a petrol motor car at the end of the day. I'm trying to do my bit and help Mark W to figure out the cooling issues and we are very nearly there. I'm waiting for the last adaptor and once engine and gearbox oil changed, I will have the ability to reliably measure engine and gearbox oil temperature. That will tell us a true picture as to how hot/cold does the car really run. 

[ScottR400D]

I would think any manufacturer could produce a car with that performance, if they don’t fit all the other things that are on most cars these days. 

I would also think there are already others who do. Aerial?

In any case it hardly excuses poor customer service, IMHO. 

[brianjhall31]

I have been watching this thread with interest.  As a retired aerospace engineer who worked on Environmental Control Systems, Wing Anti Ice and Bleed Air Control, where the working range for functional testing was -40c to +50, I can say that this issue is clearly fixable but not without the creation of a specific system for the 620 environment i.e. bolting together off the shelf components without a specific temperature control system won't work.  Is the 620 model a "bridge too far" for CC as regards the support and on-going development they can provide?  This thread looks like it might be?

This thread shows that we have within L7C members lots of experience and expertise that could help. However there is not currently any direct and official relationship between us (in my aircraft parlance "the operators") and CC (the manufacturer) As a member of the current group tasked with L7C management this is certainly an area I want to pursue.