p.mole1 Posted May 30, 2018 Author Share Posted May 30, 2018 Hi Jonathan,Graph as requested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 If that's torque and power, a torque curve that flat takes some believing for a tuned K Series. Doesn't look right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jonathan Kay Posted May 30, 2018 Member Share Posted May 30, 2018 ... the power and torque curves did not merge at 5250 rpm.The mathematical inevitability isn't that the curves "merge": it's that torque and power have the same numerical value. Which they do: it's about 103. But on that graph they've used different scales for the two observations so the same numerical value isn't the same distance from the axis.JonathanPS: With two measures where the values are so close I would use the same numerical scale. And I'd have the marks on the axis and any cross-ruling at the chunks of 10 rather than 15 whatevers. Both of those would reduce the likelihood of misreading. And the lines from any run would cross where expected! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted May 30, 2018 Author Share Posted May 30, 2018 Thanks,an extremely disappointing result for a lot of effort and expense and time! I have never spent as much time cleaning measuring, checking and re-checking, port matching and cleaning up casting marks I have just re-checked the compression and I have 220 psi on each cylinder to within a 1 or 2 psi. I don't how everyone else is getting 160 bhp + I wish I had just thrown in the engine with a quick jet wash and oil change. I seem too have spent a couple grand to gain a few bhp. I have fitted a Power Speed exhaust, Emerald K6, Piper cam wheels, burned out my Dremel cleaning up the head,2 days of my life wasted ! , Jenvey 42 mm throttle bodies and an Auto Technex air box and I even made a cold air feed for the filter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 You've now posted two different sets of curves. Unless I'm misreading things, they are not even remotely consistent. For example you got about 130lbft on the first one and 100lbft on the second. Where did 30lbft go? Even the first plot has an unusually flat curve but it does have at least the expected peak torque somewhere in the mid range and rolling off either side. The second curve just shows the same torque everywhere. I don't think that second dyno run is correct at all, something was either going very wrong with the engine (I don't think) or the dyno (I do think). Would it not be worth taking to somewhere that has the skills to map the Emerald properly and the diagnostics to see what is going on, and a well trusted dyno? It may just all need setting up properly, or at least if something is wrong somewhere they may be able to point you in the right direction, for example with AFR, ignition timing or similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted May 31, 2018 Area Representative Share Posted May 31, 2018 I'm sorry to hear you're having problems, or at least power isn't quite as expected. Good to know that the engine I sold you was mechanically at least in good condition with healthy compression.I do wonder if the standard head is holding this engine back - a fully ported one that allows it to breathe properly in conjunction with those TBs, I'm sure would make all the difference. It might be worth talking to DVA to get his opinion.I'm sure you will get it sorted, so don't give up, although I understand your disappointment - we've all been there!At least you must have a bit more torque to play with compared with your old 1.4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I think you really need to establish what BHP/Torque you have by using a rolling road that is known for giving accurate results. Whereabouts in the country are you? I would use either Track n Road in Rainham Essex, Northampton Motorsport in Northampton or Emerald in Thetford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 I'm tempted to take it to Emerald but its the other end of the country. John Sleath is a very well respected rolling road operator, engine builder and is one of the recommended Emerald rolling roads. I am starting to doubt my camshaft timing, although I checked it numerous times and set it at 080" inlet and 060" exhaust as recommended. The car was first dynoed with the nose cone on and the Auto Technix air box on and the air filter would be drawing in the hot air from the radiator? I have since made a panel to shield the inlet from the radiator but I doubt it would loosing more than a couple of bhp. Maybe the air up north is not as good as down south! I am really curious to know how every one else seems to getting so much more power, am i doing something wrong or missing something obvious?I only took to local rolling road to get a comparison with my friends Westfield but I think it was a complete of time as every run he did produced different results and I got the feeling he would give you what ever result you waned.Unfortunately we are not very well served in the far North of England with motorsports expertsI still think the air horns may be too long, would this loose me 15+ bhp at the top end? Do the Caterham R 300 K series have air horns as this engine is almost identical bar the throttle bodies and I think the R 300 has the same cams with solid tappets.If anything I was expecting a little bit more as the standard head casting is awful or at least mine was. My Injectors seem fine and are well within their capacity, plug seem fine, I fitted a new rotor arm, cap and leads.One thing that has improved the car no end was the Jenvey throttle linkage, it seems to offer much more control at lower throttle openings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 If your in the north, I suggest having a chat with Dave Gemzoe - check Gemzoe Motorsport webpage out, hes in Wakefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hi Nick, Your engine was in superb condition, with hindsight I should have just dropped it in. I only took it apart to fit stronger pistons for anticipated extra revs and power, oh well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hi Tom thanks I am going to run the car as is for this year, then I will try and get it sorted out over the winter, I'll see how it performs at Cadwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revilla Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I would be careful just trying to run it as it is for a season, especially if you are planning to push it on track. You've had concerns over injectors and fuel flow rates from the start. If the issues are due to it leaning off at WOT and higher powers, you could do serious damage to your engine. I know how you must be feeling, I too took great care over building an engine, dropped it in and quickly found all was not well - in my case oil consumption issues rather than power. Very frustrating. I too decided to just run it as it was for a season, ended up coked up to the eyeballs and detonating. Surely after all the hard work you've put into it so far it's worth a longer drive down to a good tuner to get it set up properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Mason Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I've heard a few people say good things about motorscope in Northallerton (never been myself) but talking to a fella over the weekend with a 230+ bhp K who had his set up there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 Thanks Paul might give him a ring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Piers300 Posted May 31, 2018 Area Representative Share Posted May 31, 2018 /sites/default/files/images/users/7956/medium_IMG_0039.JPG/sites/default/files/images/users/7956/medium_Connector_0.JPGThis is a standard R300 K inlet trumpet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 Yes, but the R300 TBs are very long.. the overall length is greater than Jenvey’s with 90mm trumpets. You only lose 2-3 at the top end with open trumpets and the gain in torque far outweighs it.Oiily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesG Posted June 1, 2018 Share Posted June 1, 2018 I can speak from experience of using Motoscope several times, with various cars, Richard knows what he is doing. My current engine is a 1.8 K with Jenveys and Emerald, and was set up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 Thanks everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 I have come to the conclusion my camshaft timing must be out, too far advanced? The engine has loads of mid range but seems a bit breathless at the top end. I also discovered at Cadwell hit about 105 mph really quickly then it just stops accelerating. This relates to about 6 to 6500 revs right where my power peaks as I have the six speed box with the 3.9 diff.I would like to raise the the maximum power up the rev range, how far advanced would the cams need to be to loose 15 bhp? I The timed the cams using a 360 degree protractor and a single dial gauge, although not as accurate I should have been within +/- 2 degrees, is that enough to make a difference. Does anybody have the brackets and dial gauges that are on DVA's site available for loan so I could re-check my cam timing. It would not really be possible to use the proctractor when the engine is in the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Throttle pedal actually opens the butterflies fully?(In teaching grandmother to suck eggs mode!) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 Yes, good point though. It's always best to check the simple stuff first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 You will never get an accurate reading using a protractor on the crank pulley and trying to time at peak lift, its a box full of errors and inaccuracies at every stage biting at you. Lift at TDC is the only accurate way.Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 Hi Oily thanks I only used the protractor to get TDC taking into account dwell. I needed a quick accurate way of getting a repeatable TDC as I only had one dial gauge but I timed the cams at TDC. It was difficult to get more +- 1 or 2 degrees on the protractor due to the pointer. However I was able to get consistent results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p.mole1 Posted July 13, 2018 Author Share Posted July 13, 2018 I'm off to Gemzoe next week in the hope of finding my missing power! One thing I noticed on DVA's excellent K series site is the timing figures for the SS cams is 80 thou inlet and 60 thou exhaust which is higher than the 1320 cam,which I thought had a longer duration, has the SS cam 266 degrees duration? I have bought a set of 50mm air horns but I don't recon they will make much difference. My gut feeling is my cam timing is overly advanced? also my compression ratio is only 10.5 to 1 maybe I should have gone higher? we'll se if we can find 20 bhp. Lets hope I can do better than 144 Bhp I shudder to think the cost per BhpWho knows I may already be making more power than I think, could be dyno inaccuracy? I hadn't driven it for over a month and pulled out of junction nearly ended up sideways and it's that quick you hardly have time to take your hand off the gear lever in the lower three gears! but the power seems to tail off too early. Just as well I bought my liners and pistons from Oily as I'm not using any oil and all the gaskets and seals are good so at least my bottom end is good if the top end isn't. Also everyone was right about my water leak it was the water rail, I was convinced it was the head gasket.I just wish I could have a drive of an R300 as a comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Bassett Posted July 16, 2018 Area Representative Share Posted July 16, 2018 I believe the SS cams do have 266 DEG duration - a summary table I believe to be accurate shows a comparison:Type Duration liftStock 248 8.8mmTF135 252 9.3mmVVC exhaust 252 9.65mmBP270 260 9.6mmSuperSport 266 9.6mm633 264 10mm1320 268 10mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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