Arg!! Need something that isn't a bl**dy Banner

[AntonyH]

Despite being hooked up to a CTEK at all times when in the garage, yet another sodding Banner has decided that cold temperatures just aren't its "thing" and if I ask nicely I can have almost as many as seven volts from it. Apparently it's a Boxing Day sale - 40% off all battery voltages...

Other than being mighty annoyed about cancelling tomorrow's blat (forecast: glorious sunshine), I am therefore now after suggestions for a decent battery that will survive a winter on a conditioner when the car gets driven only occasionally.

1.8 K-series from 2005; if it involves moving the battery tray (currently over the toe-end of the passenger footwell) due to size differences, etc, then so be it - sufficiently fed up of another day spoiled by a dead Banner (third or fourth, I think this is, in four years) that I'm willing to get more involved than just doing a straight replacement.

TIA

 

[Jonathan Kay]

I recommend the Powervamp Clubsport: whatever the current model is, probably NP or EP. eBay shop.

They sell a matching cage, and you might need the screw-in posts. I had to buy one longer red lead.

Jonathan

PS: Unless you think the day of lithium has come...

[Bricol]

I've had a yuasa equivalent fitted in the same tray, needed the clamp squeezing to fit between the caps and that was it.

First one lasted 5yrs (4 yr warranty), second one fitted this year . . . Had three Banners in the previous 10 yrs.

[SM25T]

PVR25 from Rally Design.

Edit  .... It was an RMD25 ... Not PVR.

[revilla]

I've found keeping the Banner on a CTEK (even the little 0.8XS) slowly but surely electrolyses the water away. Are you checking the electrolyte levels and topping up with deionised water? I worked out I had consumed more water in the battery than the windscreen washer bottle this year! If you are keeping it on a conditioner all the time (or worse still an unintelligent trickle charger) and not topping up you will kill it through low fluid levels. I've had two Banner batteries on two engines for five years and no problems to report.

[CycleSi]

Fitted an Antigravity AG1601 Lithium Ion battery and it is excellent. Massive cranking power and it only weighs 1.1kg.

A really good 'upgrade' in my opinion.

[pensioner]

I replaced a 2003 Banner battery last month, I didnt recharge it until the battery was flat, although during the winter storage I turned the master switch off

[john milner]

I'm not sure that leaving a lead acid battery connected to a conditioner for months is a good idea. A good battery that is disconnected and stored in a garage should not lose most of it's charge even after several months. The odd top-up should be more than enough.

I have yet to read on here of a better alternative when all factors are considered. The lead acid alternatives mostly have a lower capacity and the sexy others are crazy money that need to be treated with kid gloves or they die.

I am on my third Banner in 13 years and 65,000 miles. All year use of a master switch and indoor winter storage of the battery with Ctek top-up in the winter prior to using. I don't think the Banner's are particularly good but just accept that plates on a small lead acid are likely to crud up before a much larger tin top battery.

[Fatty]

Went to my car on Christmas eve and battery was flat. (Banner) Put it on Ctek conditioner and kept getting an error at stage 5. Decided boxing day was too good a day to miss so got the car started and went for a short blat. Came back put the car back on conditioner and recon - battery seems now to be revitalised. Not sure for how long but never realized you could bring a battery back to life.

Looks ike sun out again today.

[Jonathan Kay]

Yes, conditioning chargers (eg CTEK) sometimes can't recover very flat batteries. But after more vigorous (and less sensitive) charging from the alternator or a traditional trickle charger they'll maintain the charge. (I've just been through this sequence with a CTEK and a PVR25.)

Jonathan

[Jonathan Kay]

PVR25 from Rally Design.

I have a Powervamp PVR 25 but I don't think you can get them anymore: Rally Design current catalogue.

That's what led me to the failed Bulk Buy for Powervamp Clubsports, and asking Powervamp what they recommend: see post #2.

And still leaves unresolved the question of how Odyssey models differ from Powervamp models...

Jonathan

[Miltec]

Get one of the gel type batteries and an FIA switch.

Had this on mine for five years, never even though of connecting a charger or conditioner, it just works.

[Jonathan Kay]

What did you fit, and how long is it left between runs, please?

(I assume the common problem of flat batteries in 7s has at least three causes: long periods without the alternator turning, small batteries and residual electrical loads when the ignition is off.)

Jonathan

[revilla]

On the K Series (EU3), the wiring looms seem to be made to two different designs; one of which makes use of the Main Relay in the MFRU and one which does not. If you look at the larger plug on the MFRU, if you have a large Brown/Blue wire in the bottom right hand corner the Main Relay is used, if that position has no wire then the Main Relay is not used.

The function of the Main Relay seems to be to allow the ECU to isolate the supply to all the various sensors, solenoids, injectors and ignition coils when ii is powered down as the drivers for these do seem to leak somewhat with the engine switched off, leading to a significant residual current drain (people often blame the immobiliser but it's not the main source of leakage).

My guess is that given the problems that the identical Starter Solenoid relay in the MFRU can cause, they decided not to use it at some point.

Just for an experiment I've tried looms wired both ways and measure the residual leakage current through the 30A engine loom fuse when the ECU powers down. With the Main Relay connected it is around 0.2mA. Without the main relay it is around 15mA or 75 times higher.

15mA residual current draw may not seem much but another way to think of it is 0.36Ah per day or 11Ah per month. It's certainly enough to make a big difference with a (nominally) 30Ah battery when left unused for long periods over the winter.

[Jonathan Kay]

I love the smell of data in the morning...

Jonathan

[AntonyH]

Thanks all.

We do have an FIA switch, but unfortunately it's mostly useless as it also disconnects the tracker, which then falls back to its internal emergency battery which then also dies after a few days.

I've little doubt that the tracker is the reason for the batteries lasting two years only, despite the conditioner.

Note to self, the fix is to use the car more...

 

Many thanks to NicMac who selflessly blatted over this morning with a spare.

[SM25T]

Apologies .... the one I bought a few weeks ago was an RMD25.

See http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=14752

[ScottR400D]

Took my seven out yesterday for an hour. Not been used for two months though has had a conditioner attached every week or two for a few hours, last time a couple of weeks ago. Turned over but didn't start. Connected external booster, fired up and off I went. Banner is just over two years old, never looked at electrolyte.  

After reading above thread I got some deionised water this morning and checked levels of electrolyte. 1 cell below maximum but well above plates; other 5 up to peg. 

[The_ASH]

Excellent post revilla.

[Miltec]

Mine is left for months sometimes (over the winter) never had an issue.

The FIA switch cuts all power from the battery so no leaching loads at all. Just get in wait turn the key to start the fuel pump, wait a couple of minutes for the fuel to fill the carbs then turn over, normally starts first time unless really cold.

[Jonathan Kay]

What sort of battery?

Thanks

Jonathan

[Miltec]

Come from championship power, about six years ago, almost positive it's this one.

http://www.championshippower.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=73&products_id=90&zenid=3u765t1uq892e6sm65356k02h6

[Jonathan Kay]

Thanks.

The Odyssey PC680 is an AGM type, not a gel type.

Jonathan

[Miltec]

To be honest Jonathan, I don't care what it is. 

The point is I NEVER have it on a charger or conditioner and it just works. The FIA isolator is the key in my opinion. 

[AntonyH]

Update:

With our battery out of the car, I left if on the Caterham's CTEK (MXS 3.6) for about 36 hours, after which the open circuit voltage was about 11.5V.

Put it back in the car and by the time I got the multimeter on it (maybe 10 seconds later) I read about 7V from it.

Took it out again and instead hooked it up to the Defender's CTEK (MXS 7.0) which has an explicit 'recond' setting.

48 hours later, 13V o/c and about 12.6V on the car and she started first time.

Been out for a bit of a blat this afternoon, all is good (barring the muppet in the Ka who thought an unbroken white line approaching a blind crest on a NSL road was no impediment to overtaking... happily the brakes still work and 59mph to zero doesn't take much distance in a Seven, so the idiot was able to complete his manoeuvre and regain his lane).