2015 Tech forum - technical regulations affecting multiple classes

[Grahame W]

I have to agree that this is a valuable process and allows a far more considered review of the regulations than a quick 1 hour face to face meeting, especially in this year where those changes are broad and far reaching. If we return to decison by face to face meeting then presumably some form of agenda will have to be pre published and that will inevitably generate blatchat traffic anyway.

A secure area for these discussions is a good idea although presumably the intention to date has been to encourage input from potential competitors who would now be excluded.

[Matthew Willoughby]

With the new website it was not possible to set up a private forum for registered competitors hence the request to consider, before posting, what a potential novice would make of any comments.

[Steve Causey]

I believe that the online forum has been/is a useful process as it does allow more time for people to consider and contribute to the debate.  That said I also like Chris' proposal that following the online discussion any changes are formally agreed at a Tech Forum before the Awards lunch.  I feel sorry for Matthew if he has to try to pick the bones out of some of the longer, more complex discussions on his own.

I would also agree that a 'competitor's only' area would be beneficial.  The length and complexity of some of these debates alone would be enough to put off potential competitors!  Recognise Matthew's explanation that it's not possible with the new website but I'd like to understand if that's always going to be the case or whether there might be a possibility in the future when the guys working on the website have a little less on their plates?

 

[Simon.Rogers]

I would like to make a general point about the Regs as whole.

We seem to be all arguing for the same outcome - but with a different set of rules to get there.

That is - We all love the series so much we want others to join us and experience the fun, bantter, camaraderie and highs/lows of the competition.

So we all want to make the regs as attractive to those non competitors as we think.  How we each make those proposals is dependant on "our" own knowledge of engines, chassis or some weird scoring system we do or don't use.

In other words we want to be perceived as an open and friendly championship.

In and amongst all that we inherently try to word the rules to benefit our own needs (well to save our own pockets).

All of that is well justified and to be applauded 

There is just one thing in the way of all this.

I don't believe we will twist someones arm to compete.  If they are a competitive sort they will join us whatever the rules are.  We may find someone dipping their toe in to see what its all about but they would again probably do that anyway - being non competitive they are not bothered by the rules anyway.  More of an experience day for that type of person.

So how do we move on?  Well I pretty much don't mind what the rules are but they must be simple.  More and more owners are non technical and the car is a lifestyle choice rather than engineering project!  The rules need to be understood by all.

Right I'll get down now 

 

[Mark Durrant]

A potential competitor should not need to read or understand the regs however, the club should preovide a simple Aide Memoire explaining what cars fit in which classes and provide a point of contact to explain any questions they may have. The regs are there to ensure as far as possible equal competition within the classes and despite what someone might say they have worked.

[Richard Price]

Maybe we have too many classes?

When I first compete (2002), there were 6 classes.

Class one was essentially 1600 Vauxhalls and 1600xflows

2 & 3 were very similar to now with any other Xflow, and K's on a plenum running MEMS, the only difference being tyres.

Class 4 & 5 were the same cars (anything road legal that did not fit in the classes 1 to 3), where class 4 ran on list 1A's and class 5 on 1B's.

Class 6 was for any non road legal car.

Early to mid last decade, if you did not get your Curborough entry in within the first few days of the regs being published, you would not get a place.

It was not unusual to see 20 cars in a single class.

Ironically, class 4 was a well supported class, and we often had visits from drivers that compete more often in the Midland or British championships (because the Caterham class in these series ran list 1A's at that time).

Maybe class 4 & 5 should be merged to promote healthy class sizes? 

 

[Drumster]

More and more owners are non technical and the car is a lifestyle choice rather than engineering project!

Simon, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, of the 3 club meetings that I have regularly attended over the years since I stared sprinting 5 years ago there has been a fairly large number of new owners and not one has shown the slightest interest in track days let alone sprinting.

Sadly we're trying to appeal to an ever dwindling competetive 7 ownership population

As I said earlier even the clubs trackdays are nowhere near as popular and I'd guess that more than a few sprinters started ff on the trackday bug and moved onto something competetive. As Simon said you can't force people to be competetive and join in.

[andrew mckay]

Richard,

I think you make a good point about the number of classes. Instinctively I see how many there are in the classes and it doesn't seem sustainable when you look through the numbers competing in the class results, but then again is there sufficient interest out there to attract people into a simpler class structure? Also amalgamation of classes could write off significant investment for long standing competitors etc.

Its not not unique to this club either when you look at the other classes at events there are many with very few entrants. I don't know if this has always been the case. It seems to me that if you are not an ex Academy competitor or have bought an ex Academy car then these days it's probably an expensive 7 you own that isn't likely to see the track.

I can tell from the posts how much people enjoy competing and we all seem to be conscious that new entrants are needed to continue but don't come through in significant numbers. If this continues then less classes will be the innevitable outcome. I only really see 4  classes and only 1 on 1a tyres but that's another discussion.

And lastly I haven't done that many events this year but the experience has been very positive and enjoyable. It's a shame that more people don't experience It. I'm sure my fellow novice competitors would agree based on their experiences this year. 

I guess theses forums just bring the passion out in a different way.

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CaterBram]

Over this years competition 59 competitors have had 380 entries, 

Class 1 to 3 are the best supported classes both by number of competitors and competitive entries, with Class 5 a close runner up. (With Class 2 having the hightest number of entries and entries per competitor. )

Class 4 which had a robust number of entries had the lowest number of entries per competitor.

In real terms 5,6 & 7 are specialist classes which will always have lower number of entries.

there were four competitors this year who entered the championship but did not actually compete, including 3 novices.

As far as the rule changes go Class 1 to 3 probably offer the most interest to the majority of those looking to compete but that need not be at the expence of existing competitors.

It would be interesting to know what changed the minds of those who did not compete over the last few years as I suspect it's more to do with financial pressures than minor changes to the regulations.

Competition in the lower classes is still one of the most cost effective forms of motor sport, and the best ambasadors for the championship should be those who compete, A great group of people who generally get along, every single one of which would go out of there way to help there nearest rival.

Yes we all bluster at times, and some have more vocal opinions than others at times, but face it we're either certifiable or addicted or both.......    

Roll on the start of the 2015 season...

 

[andrew mckay]

Yes...go on then sign me up for next season. 

[Cookie Monster]

FWIW I think this forum is a good idea which gives everybody the opportunity to make their points over an extended period; it allows reflection & in some cases people to understand a different perspective or viewpoint which they may not have previously considered & possibly to modify their views. In short it feels more democratic.

To compress that into a short meeting seems very shortsighted & there are some people - of which I am one - who cannot get to the Awards lunch. So the suggestion is that if they aren't at the Awards lunch to represent their view then it may be discounted. That doesn't seem very inclusive to me.

[guitarguy]

 

Cookie Monster -  agree totally! As a newcomer, I for one would be much more likely to voice opinions on an online forum than in a face-to-face meeting... Anything that broadens the contributions can only be good. And yes, time to reflect helps people modify their positions based on what's gone before, as the debate continues. And yes, of course, not everyone can get to the awards lunch...

Interesting class breakdown of entries Chris....  As to what changes peoples minds after entering the Championships? - I'd say financial or time constraints  are probably the main reasons, and also I guess just 'taking the plunge' (it can feel like a mighty big step, and quite daunting from a standing start!). On that note, why don't we ask them on an individual basis?  - in the name of research. I know I made noises about maybe doing a taster Clubman entry at Curbs last year.... someone got in touch and asked what changed my mind (I thought that was a nice touch - creates the feel that the club cares which can only help...!).

Yes, Aeroscreens, I was surprised at the polarisation within club area meetings too re what people want from their Seven -  and at the lack of people interested in trackdays, let alone competing.... (I was very surprised actually - I thought it all went hand-in-hand).  And yes Andy, there is a big raft of people that have very high specced cars that seem to just sit in the garage and just come out on half a dozen good days a year, and rarely/never see a track. Each to their own of course - we are all different (I do get the impression that I'm a bit of rare category, someone with a road based car that wants to use it ALL the time AND do trackdays AND compete.... bit of a compromise all round I guess, if you only have the one Cat and no money, but still do-able!!).

Of course we do need to attract new blood - I feel that should be a real priority. I've tried to do my bit -  angling the three 'newbie sprint articles' I've done for LF ('final roundup' one in Dec issue!) very squarely at whetting peoples appetites ('Well if he can do it, why can't I?'). I came in from nowhere and like Andy, have 'loved every second' - I'd love others to experience that feeling, starting well and truly at the back, and slowly making some improvement... you just can't beat it! (but I guess you've all been there before us!).

I was a little surprised at the rules complexity/bendability.... and how emotionally charged  that all can become. But coming in from the back, in the bottom class, with a bog standard car means I am yet to be affected by any of that.... all a bit above my head at the moment. However, I did think rules were rules though....

Shame there is no scope for a competitors only section to discuss these things, though having said that we wouldn't want that to create an impression of 'cliqueyness' - an exclusive 'club within the club'....

Personally I don't think complex rules (or debates about those rules) would stop a newcomer having a go - for most (of us!) at that level it's all pretty clear cut... (it's more about 'not coming last'.....   )

 

[Simon.Rogers]

Mark

Can you clarrify

 

 I was a little surprised at the rules complexity/bendability.... -

Its the last word that concerns me or at least what your perception is because as far as I am concerned there certainly isn't.

[guitarguy]

Just picking up on the general comments earlier SImon (David and others) re power limits in class, claimed power/actual power  and whether or not it needs to be policed and if so how.... (rolling roads/speed traps). I guess there has been some issues in the past from the tone of what people are saying... I'm just registering surprise at that.

And re complexity, I suppose it has to be - to keep the class system fair...  I haven't really got a clue about what half of the technical stuff is all about as I have yet to have the upgraditus kick in and it doesn't really yet apply (I've got a bog standard basic car - I'm more interested in learning to drive it first!). Early days yet though.... as I'm no doubt yet to discover.

(Pleased there is no rolling road requirement as a matter of course at the mo though - that's an expense and inconvenience I can do without right now if I'm honest....).

For what is meant to be a fun bit of club level motorsport I suppose it has the potential to start 'sounding a bit heavy' at times... just my perspective. 

[Grahame W]

Mark

It IS fun club level motorsport, thats why so many come back year after year.

Unfortunately what you have picked up on is the unenviable dilema that Matthew and the others will now have to deal with in crafting next years regulations.

We either have a rule book that ties down every last detail, (as the official Caterham race championships do)  and if you don't then then there cannot be any bending of the rules if the rule did not exist in the first place, it is merely interpretation. Extrapolate that philosophy a little bit further and you end up at this years proposal of no rules just a maximum power figure.