Category B

[Guest]

I'm about to take delivery of a Category B recorded Caterham.

 

It'll have a new chassis etc and rebuilt properly and VIC completed. Will this car be able to be insured for the road?

 

So Far, Adrian Flux has said no. Does anyone have experience of returning a Cat B car to the road?

[Klunk]

Category B is parts only salvage. From this I would assume the vehicle identification cannot be reused. You can use the parts to rebuild your car but you would need to build it and IVA it as per a new car and it would be a Q plate on being registered. I think....

[MADMALC]

Out of interest is it a yellow slr? If so it was mine.

[SLR No.77]

SLR No.27?

 

Stu.

[Roger Ford]

Lot of FUD out there on Cat B cars and whether they can be put back on the road or not. this pistionheads thread says they can. Regarding insurance, I suspect you'll have much more chance with the specialists than with Flux.

[NoLimits]

I looked at an SV Cat B earlier in the week. Certainly a new chassis job. It was Cat B and although legally there is nothing preventing it being returned to the road with the original reg if the chassis was repaired not replaced or as Q reg with new chassis and IVA as described above I did some maths and decided against it.

 

Would be a great car if a keeper and you know the complete story. Just didn't add up for a sale item.

[I reply to every thread]

I wouldn't trust flux to wipe their own arses properly so I'd seek a better source of info

[Klunk]

Found this on Locostbuilders re. Cat B

 

Les Elliott, Chairman of MIAFTR and a representative of the ABI Salvage Code of Practice adds: “The ABI Salvage Code specifically states that where an Insurer takes control of total loss salvage, such as a Category B, it is broken for spares and the body shell crushed. However, where a person retains the salvage it can be returned to the road, but is subject to a VIC if the V5 is surrendered to DVLA.”

 

If the code is an agreement between the Insurers, you can understand why they won't insure a car they say should have had its chassis crushed. However, as Simon says, it's not illegal as long as it's been subject to a VIC. So the problem is obviously the link between VOSA and the Insurance companies' database(s).

 

Ah bureaucracy - don't you just love it! 😬

[Roger Ford]

Quoting Peter De La Mare: 

It'll have a new chassis etc

 

It might be easier if the chassis is repaired. Salvage what you can (I'm sure the id plate will be reusable, for example) and get Bruce to repair all the non-salvageable tubes.

[Mavic82]

As far as I am aware it is not law. If the vehicle has a VIC then it can be returned to the road once inspected. However the classifications are guidelines by which the insurance industry operate.

 

If the insurance company class the vehicle as cat B or cat A they will usually want proof of destruction or return of the VIC before the vehicle is sold for scrap. They are also very unlikely to insure the vehicle as by their own guidelines the vehicle is to dangerous to return to the road.

 

Guidelines below

 

 

 

In the UK well over 500,000 vehicles are deemed a total loss or write off by insurance companies every year. Many of these however can be safely repaired but many can end up being returned to the road in dangerous condition. The insurance loss categories are listed below and explain how they are indicated on a vehicle data check. If you have doubts or to be absolutely certain that a vehicle is in a good roadworthy condition, it may be worth considering having a vehicle inspection done by the AA or RAC or one of the other accredited providers. I will look into inspections and perhaps add a inspection compare link in the future.

 

Insurance Loss Categories - Quick reference

 

* Category A - Must be crushed. All of it.

 

* Category B - Vehicle may not be returned to road but parts may be sold.

 

* Category C - Repairable. Significant damage. Cost of the repair is more than book value of vehicle at dealer rates.

 

* Category D - Repairable. Probably non-structural damage. May have been economic to repair, but insurer doesn't want to.

 

* Category X - Repairable. Minor Damage

 

Insurance Loss Categories - In detail

 

Category A The vehicle may not be resold it must be crushed. Severely damaged, total burnout or flood damage with no serviceable parts, or already a stripped out shell. DVLA will require a "Notification of Destruction".

 

Category B The vehicle may not be resold. It will have been damaged beyond economical repair, usually with major structural damage. The DVLA will require "Notification of Destruction" but parts can be removed and sold on.

 

Category C Repairable salvage. Usually applies to vehicles with significant damage and where the cost of repairs exceeds the book value. It can be sold for repair but must have VIC(Vehicle Identity Check) inspection before returning to the road. V5 documents are returned to DVLA and recorded as category C vehicles. You can re-apply for registration on the original identity once the VIC inspection has been done. VIC inspection and re-registration removes the Category C classification, but evidence it was at one time Category C remains on the vehicle's record at the DVLA and so will appear on a vehicle data check.

 

What is a Vehicle Identity Check and how does it work?(taken from the VOSA's site) The Vehicle Identity Check (VIC) has been introduced to help reduce car crime. It is intended to deter criminals from disguising stolen cars with the identity of written off ones. When an insurance company ‘writes off’ a car, (Category A, B or C) they notify DVLA and a VIC marker is placed on the DVLA record. DVLA will not issue a Registration Certificate (V5C) or a Vehicle Licence Reminder (V11) to a car with a VIC marker against it. In order to remove the VIC marker the car needs to be inspected by VOSA to confirm its identity. When the car passes the VIC, the marker is removed. The VIC will be carried out by VOSA. It will involve comparing the car against information held by DVLA, such as the vehicle identification number, make, model, colour and engine number. The VIC will also compare the record of previous accident damage with evidence of damage repair as well as checking other components to confirm the age and identity of the car.

 

Will the VIC confirm that the vehicle is roadworthy? No. The VIC is designed to confirm the identity of the car and does not assess the quality of the repair. You should seek independent expert opinion as to whether the car is roadworthy. If whilst carrying out the check the inspector notices a serious defect which would make the car dangerous to drive, then they will issue a notice which prohibits the car being used. Once it has been made roadworthy the prohibition can be removed.

 

Note: I understand motorbikes falling into this category do not have to undergo a VIC inspection so will warrant close investigation and clarification of identity.

 

Category D Repairable salvage. Minimal damage, probably not structural, but insurer does not want to repair, even though it might be economic to do so. Often stolen and recovered after claim has been paid. Or it maybe a vehicle where parts are difficult to obtain so a quick repair is unlikely. Does not need VIC inspection to return to road. Notification will appear in your vehicle history check

 

Category X has been the subject of a claim but minor or very lightly damaged and required minimal repair work. It would not be recorded with the DVLA so would not appear in any Vehicle Data Check

 

"not recorded" - Not an official category, it simply means that there has not been an insurance claim, possibly only had third party insurance and damaged the vehicle themselves or don't know who caused the damaged so can not make a claim or may not even been insured, either way the DVLA will not know in these cases so will not be recorded and will not show on any Vehicle History Check

 

[Guest]

Thanks chaps, interesting information. I'll try Reis for insurance info.

[Guest]

They advise that Cat B cars are uninsurable also.

 

How do other people do this then, I'm a little bewildered. Can it be re-categorised?

[NoLimits]

No. Thats why I stepped away.

 

You can only do the Q reg and new IVA route. Then the values do not stack up.

[Violet Elizabeth]

Quoting Peter De La Mare: 

They advise that Cat B cars are uninsurable also.

 

How do other people do this then, I'm a little bewildered. Can it be re-categorised?

 

"Sell" them abroad, then re-import and re-register. Or rebuild and register. The former is somewhat dodgy

 

Recategorisation would have to be performed by the insurer or engineer who first put the marker on MIAFTR - and they (and the DVLA) make it very very difficult

 

I wouldn't believe much you read about Write Off categories on Pistonheads (expect my nuggets of wisdom, obviously) - most of the "I got a Cat A back on the road" are from traders or repairers. And be suspicious of any advice that includes "Cat X" - you haven't been able to do one of those for ages.

 

Whilst it is certainly possible to do this, and it isn't "illegal" (although if you are a registered salvage agent and you start to sell Cat A/B cars instead of crush 'em you could be in bother with your local council) it isn't going to be easy. Your local VOSA place *may* remove the V11 marker.

 

Insurance is, as you have found, going to be the difficultly here. Most insurers will do a MIAFTR check, and it will flag it up. Whilst it is possible to cleanse something like a Stolen Unrecovered from HPI, the flag still stays on MIAFTR and is visible.

 

Recent changes to insurance law do remove the "Utmost good faith" from the consumer, so if an insurer doesn't ask the question you don't have to tell them any more. Although if you did have a claim, they are almost certain to do a MIAFTR check. And the fact it was a Writeoff will affect the settlement value.

 

For me....it is more trouble that it is worth. But then I have seen the bother people get into a claim time, so my view is clouded.

 

 

Edited by - Violet Elizabeth on 22 Nov 2013 10:24:19

[Z3MCJez]

Recent changes to insurance law do remove the "Utmost good faith" from the consumer, so if an insurer doesn't ask the question you don't have to tell them any more. Although if you did have a claim, they are almost certain to do a MIAFTR check. And the fact it was a Writeoff will affect the settlement value.

 

This is interesting. Can you expand a little as to what happened. Is there a new case or is it a change in law (as I've not heard anything about that)?

 

Cheers,

 

Jez

[SLR No.77]

Does this mean if you get points on your license and they don't ask, you don't need to tell them? Or is there likely to be small print that gets around any change to legislation?

 

Stu.

[Ed White]

I used to buy and sell salvage, but going back a while, but here is my understanding:-

 

If you bought a CAt B seven, you wouldn't get the id. You almost certainly would not get the chassis, and would have to strip it in the yard of all parts, leaving the chassis behind. I did exactly this once. I have however seen a yard sell one, but literally cut in half.

 

I would approach it from using it as a source of parts, to be built onto a new chassis, and IVA'd to end up with a Q plate car. It might stack up that way if you are doing it to keep it; depends how much you pay for the salvage.

Done that way, the parts will have no direct tie-in to the end result. ie your finished car will be "new" from a registration point, with no history, although Q plated as built from parts.

 

Be very careful doing the maths. If you proceed, I'd speak to the loacl IVA centre first and explain what you are doing, talk to an insurer first, and then record both the disassembly of the salvage and the build with a cery thorough photographic record, and keep every scrap of paperwork/parts bills etc as a build history.

 

Regards, Ed

 

 

[Ed White]

Quoting AVES: 

I wouldn't trust flux to wipe their own arses properly so I'd seek a better source of info

 

Totally agree, fecking clueless, you aren't trying to insure the original car. You are trying to insure a "new" car built from a new chassis and a selection of secondhand parts, much along the lines of every Q plated car out there.

 

Edited by - Ed White on 22 Nov 2013 14:48:47

[Violet Elizabeth]

Quoting Z3MCJez: 

Recent changes to insurance law do remove the "Utmost good faith" from the consumer, so if an insurer doesn't ask the question you don't have to tell them any more. Although if you did have a claim, they are almost certain to do a MIAFTR check. And the fact it was a Writeoff will affect the settlement value.

 

This is interesting. Can you expand a little as to what happened. Is there a new case or is it a change in law (as I've not heard anything about that)?

 

Cheers,

 

Jez

 

Yes, new law. The Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Act 2012 which came into force on the 6th April (and is currently being ignored by a lot of the insurance industry it seems).

 

It removes the long standing requirement on a consumer to disclose any facts that a prudent insurer would consider material and replaces this with a statutory duty to take reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation. Doesn't apply to commercial insurance.

 

So they can no longer rely on those "If there is something you haven't told us but you think we should know then you must tell us" clauses as well as the "You promise that everything you have told us is true and this contract is void if it ain't" ones too.

 

On the flip side, if you do "lie a little by mistake" then the penalty is no longer the increased premium, but the proportion on the claim that reflects the underpayment. So if they premium would have been £200 rather than £100, you don't just pay the £100. They can knock 50% of the settlement 😳

[Violet Elizabeth]

Quoting sforshaw: 

Does this mean if you get points on your license and they don't ask, you don't need to tell them? Or is there likely to be small print that gets around any change to legislation?

 

Stu.

 

Pre-contract, or at renewal, then yes, technically, if they don't ask, you don't have to tell.

 

But they could still ask you to disclose mid-term, although the legalities of the actual duty and remedy for breaking that are long and tedious.