Temporary Garage engineering suggestions please - and condensation advice

[Ian B]

I don't have the use of a convenient garage at the moment, and tend to keep the car on the road all year to enjoy on those crisp sunny winter days

I hope to build a proper garage next year, but in the meantime I already have an Airchamber:

 

Although it is meant for use inside a garage, the manufacturers have said it will be OK outside over winter (as long as there's some weight in it when the car's not in it, and the fans are protected from direct rain).

 

The only problem is that it has a flat top, and any rain/snow will collect in a pool, and if there's enough will probably cause it to break ☹️

 

So I thought I'd use some electrical trunking to brace and raise the roof cross bars slightly, but that isn't very effective 😔

 

 

So for now I've added three props to lift the roof and allow the water to run off before it can pool, which seems to work ok but is a pain if I want to use the car as the front and rear ones have to be cable tied to the car otherwise they will fall over when the wind blows and the roof lifts slightly

 

 

 

In the fairly unlikely event of snow being forecast I will put a heater in there so it doesn't settle on the roof.

 

I can't put too much upward pressure of the roof as it's fairly old and the plastic could crack (or come apart at the central welded seam - which I am going to strengthen with some clear repair tape).

 

🤔 So the question to the POBC: any suggestions for a simple, cheap, way to stop the rain pooling on the roof?

 

TIA

 

 

Edited by - Ian B on 6 Oct 2012 19:46:15

[CageyH]

Put a gazebo over the top...

[Ian B]

Thx, and an option I hadn't thought of, but most of the normal garden/easi-up gazebos seem to say not to be left up overnight, and I don't really want to buy an expensive 'industrial' one 😔

 

[Stationary M25 Traveller]

Buy a set of winter tyres for the tin top. That worked quite well last year

[Golf Juliet Tango]

Hi Ian

I think you are on the right path with your arches.

Many gardeners use water pipe to build arches to support netting and use the MDPE Blue Waterpipe (it may not always be blue). Obviously the balance between flexibility (bending it to a suitable radius) and rigidity (keeping the fabric up) is difficult to assess.

I would use the material all the way to the ground and strap the ends to maintain the separation correctly.

Looking at the general pictures, I think that the spacing between the frames is too large at the moment and would put additional arches between, as well as under, every arch. This would give a convexity to much of the roof and should mean you don't have to use the temporary props. (or consider putting pairs of arches diagonally across each bay between the frames)

 

Edited by - Golf Juliet Tango on 6 Oct 2012 18:19:13

[Ian B]

Thx GJT, blue MDPE should be better than the electrical trunking and conduit that I've tried - and I think I have a coil of it somewhere

 

Also a bit concerned at condensation now.

Having run it for two days now the inside surface gets very wet, even with the fans running all the time and the vent at the other end open.

 

Not sure what will be most cost effective, a cheap and cheerful dehumidifier running 24hr, or an 'over-shelter' as suggested above.

 

It's all getting a bit expensive now though as a shelter strong enough to last all year round is about £355 for something like this Dancover (can't go any wider than that).

I'd guess with the Airchamber inside the Shelter the two 'layers' would prevent most of the condensation from forming?

And I wouldn't need to bother with propping the roof.

 

However, if I'm going to that trouble then maybe £111 for a dehumidifier like this 300w one? (no idea if 20 l/day would be the right size) and a bit of MDPE hooping might provide a drier environment?

May need to add a 500w heater in the winter to keep the temp over 5C for the dehumidifer to work though!

 

help! 😳

 

[EFA]

I've got an old washing machine and tumble dryer you can put on your front lawn if you are really trying to offend your neighbours!

[Ian B]

😬 Thanks for the offer Arnie

I'd rather have the car dry than keep the neighbours happy - although they are surprisingly tolerant - so far

 

[pugwash]

Ian,

 

I think you have two questions here, one about shelter and one about condensation. They are linked because of the Airchamber.

I have a Carcoon which is a bit like your Airchamber and designed to work inside a garage. The principle is it stops the car from getting damp from condensation because it effectively maintains the car and the air surrounding the car at the same temperature. Condensation only forms when the air is a different temperature to the surface. For a car in a garage if the temp of the air inside the garage drops changes rapidly relative to the temp of the car there is a potential for condensation. What the Carcoon does is create a bubble of air around the car which only changes in temperature relative to the car very slowly and hence reduces condensation (as well as keeping the car nice and dust free). The amount of air inside the bubble changes very slowly - the principle is not to blow as much air as possible over the car, but to allow enough air to change so that the temp / humidity changes very slowly. In practice of course the temp / humidity of the air in the garage is not so far away from what is inside the bubble at any one time. If you move the airchamber outside in the rain then you have much greater difference between the inside and the outside and any moisture inside the chamber will tend to condense on the inside of the chamber itself (like on a bedroom window on a cold morning). Carcoon used to (and may still do) outdoor versions but these were multi layered and heavily insulated to prevent this happening.

If you simply want an outside garage then I would have thought the cover you linked to looks good, or just use the airchamber and leave unzipped sufficient for the air to circulate (like a big car port). That will sort your condensation problem (as much as it can be sorted). Your approach of mechanically dehydrating the air will work of course but as you have suggested, brings its own challenges.

Could you rent a garage off a neighbour / local council etc?

 

(Sits back and waits for critique on technical description above!)

 

[Molecular--Bob]

Put the roof up and sell the tent, no more problems with differential micro-climates.

[Ian B]

Thanks Pugwash,

 

Absolutley the two problems/questions are linked - I just hadn't thought about the condensation element before putting the airchanber outside .

I subsequently thought about it and realised that was why the outdoor carcoon was double walled (I used to have an indoor one as well but swapped to the airchamber as it was less faff to get the car in/out).

 

I have kept the car under a close fitting car cover, but it's getting a bit long in the tooth now and seems to be letting in some water, and is also a pain when I need to take it off and it's wet, so I thought I'd try the 'outside garage' approach.

 

The reason I was thinking of using the airchamber either inside the shelter or with a dehumidifier as I thought that having the seven constantlty exposed to the outside moisture laiden air over winter wouldn't be good - although I guess that's what most detatched unheated brick garages do anyway.

 

Will have to decide which route to go down (Shelter over the top, or dehumidifier inside with hoops) I guess

 

 

And Bob, problem I have at the moment is water getting in through the cover and heater/louvres and saturating the carpets, which hood only won't help. I could get a new cover but would prefer to be able to drive it out without having to take the roof down and remove & find somewhere to hang a sopping wet cover 😔

 

[Molecular--Bob]

I'm only jealous because you have a driveway to play with (mine has to live on the street), but was semi serious about avoiding the micro-climate issue.

 

Pretty sure the car should be water tight, is that not the case when a heater is fitted? If its only getting in via the heater intake then you could take the bonnet off and cover the inlet for storage.

[Martin J]

All that's needed to finish off your temporary garage Ian is some nice floral curtains to stop people nosing about.

[tbird]

I suspect Part of the condensation problem will also be that you are continually pumping moist air through chamber, bracing roof with Blue water pipe should work, have used it in the past to build mini polly tunnels, jut need to refine design so it is free standing inside air chamber as for Fans I would turn off/remove and seal and use a dehumidifier. The De humidifier you linked to is unlikely to perform at quoted figures at outdoor temperature in winter, so as you say would also need a heater, if you use a desiccant type dehumidifier I believe they are more efficient at lower temperature, but also generate more of their own heat as part of the process, I use one of these here which I find very efficient, if you pipe to external drain then the tank would not need emptying, my one concern would be the drain pipe freezing. I guess you could line with bubble wrap to increase insulation of air chamber and I suppose you could use external drain pipe into a jerry can and just empty once a month or so, once the air inside is dry then the dehumidifier goes into a low power mode. The main annoyance with this dehumidifier is if it looses power it does not auto start so you have to remember manualy start it up, I think there are probably desiccant dehumidifiers that will auto start.

 

Tim

[Myles]

Is building a proper garage this year totally out of the question then?

[Ian B]

Yep fraid so - it will need to be part of an extension to the house, that requires knocking down some outbuildings as well, and Planning Permission

 

Have one of these dehumidifiers arriving tomorrow so will see how that works.

Also have a plan to improve the roof supports so hopefully will know by the end of the weekend if it's successful.

 

[charlie_pank]

You only need to make a temporary modification to the wall of the building at the back of the picture and you could stick the car in there!

[jonboylaw]

As Pugwash says, go and ask your local council if they have any lock-ups available. Mine is <£30 a month and keeps the car nice and dry.

 

 

[Ian B]

Charlie, that's the one that'll be replaced by an extension, but it's only 6 feet deep at present.

 

jonboylaw, the council only had 8 garages in the village, very convenient as only a few hundred yards away, but unfortunately they have sold them to a Housing Association who are in the process of knocking them down to build some new houses 😔

 

[bluenose]

Ian

 

Why not pull down all the bits on the side of the house and put one of these up. I put one up very similar and no planning permission required. If you want to build an extension then you can probably sell the wooden garage on. Wooden garages are nice and dry and do not suffer from much condensation. I reckon it would take a couple of weeks to acheive a satisfactory result.

 

[Crudders]

Hi Ian, IIRC, when Chris 'Far Too Many Toys' Clark needed a temporary garage he bought a pram hood type which folds flat to the ground when not in use, like Cover Systems offering

here.

 

A lot less faff than your current arrangement and the smaller size is £470 delivered.

 

Cruds

 

 

Edited by - Crudders on 10 Oct 2012 08:13:26

[anthonym]

I have battled these two problems in various ways over ten years. So here's what comes to mind.

 

Get it wrong and the car would have been better off simply parked outside with the hood on.

I did this once with an outside Carcoon; the car (my BDR) was sopping with condensation. Useless as a long term (i.e. a season) solution. Carcoon provided with the kit a can of some stuff which if I had used it especially with the benefit of hindsight, may have protected against the condensation - a sort of WD40 for spraying everywhere. I have since thought that I could have used that product and breathable cover.

 

Next error was to use a 40 foot container with a (expensive) dehumidifier, light heaters and soil heater wire wrapped around the exit pipe to prevent freezing.

All that failed. However, if I had been present to monitor the dehumidifier's operation then it may have worked. Also watch out for a surprise hit to the electric bill; I think it was the heating elements that did that. Took me 80 days 6 days a week to rebuild the car after this one (years in there, not just one season).

 

A BJT Minno Shuttle trailer will offer effective protection, but not so much against the condensation.

 

What I should have done was

use the Carcoon inside the 40 foot container.

use the Carcoon inside the BJT MS trailer (if it could have been forced to fit) (but I had two cars and only one trailer).

 

What I will be doing in the future, including this year is to apply copious amounts of "Winterising fluid", in other words lots of WD40 (or better if I can identify such) before closing the trailer lids for five months.

What saves me from condensation is being at high altitude (1350 metres) where in Winter the air often freezes and we have humidifiers, not dehumidifiers. The air here is very dry, great for car storage. So, check humidity in your locality (North West GB is very bad).

Finally, maybe drive it in Winter when possible to give it a good airing and thereby dry off any condensation. Rain lands on the car and dries off. Condensation is horrible and gets into and clings to everything - I was horrified when I removed the petrol tank and saw the damage beneath, all now fixed from stem to stern.

 

I hope something in here helps.

 

In my experience your main asset is your presence - your problem is how to dry her once condensation is within: hence suggesting "dry out drives".

 

it is a nasty problem - I like the above suggestion about fitting the hood and leaving it at that; then you won't have any false confidence. The covers I have tried were either waterproof and condensation soaked her, or breathable and she got soaked anyway!

 

the foldaway garages give me pause... collapse whenever possible (daily if not raining) to allow drying of the car and that may work.

 

edit: be ready to buy large numbers of s/s nuts, bolts and washers (not for load bearing items). Nothing like rust for showing up very clearly all the non stainless steel bits.

Anodise front suspension arms, saved the day for my BDR, thanks to "my" builder Geoff Mansell.

Consider removal of electronic components that can corrode within e.g. accelerator potentiometer.

 

Anthony

 

 

Edited by - anthonym on 13 Oct 2012 04:22:21