2011 Tech Forum

[Simon.Rogers1]

Unlike in previous years where we have all had the opportunity to sit down after the awards lunch to provide input into the forthcoming year we have had to make some changes given the new style Awards Dinner. (I'd hate to see the class structure and rules we would end up with after a Saturday Night Party)

 

So after making notes throughout the year and taking the views of many in the Championship (including long email debates) the following items were discussed and the proposals shown at the end.

 

I would like to hear your views and should they conflict with those proposed I will reconsider. Please feel free to post on this thread or email me directly.

 

 

 

Lets try and refer to each point by a number so we can try and keep track.

 

1. We will amend our rules to include the specification of running order where a double drive occurs. The fastest driver to run first - in the case of equally talented drivers eg Tom and Richard (not sure I should have said that Richard :-0 this will become difficult as one will win this event and vice versa. So the running order will be decided on the previous years championship position. I will inform and point out this rule to all our Event organisers and we will highlight it on the Championship Registration Form. - Not for discussion - decided!

 

2.I propose a new Class. This will effectively be Class 5B. It will be renamed Class 6 and the current Class 6 will become Class 7. This new class will be for all Bike engined cars (other than Fireblades which will remain in Class 4) and other sequential gearboxed cars. There will also additionally be a power cap introduced to Class 5 (at what value is still to be decided Somewhere from 250 - 265bhp). Effectively this means Busa and very big power K and Duratec's. I have discussed this with many on this email list and there are many pro's and cons. It primarily effects Rob Margel and myself. Sometimes others who attend odd events. We have clearly seen that the Busa is significantly faster than a well spec'd K. Approx 1.5 - 2 sec on an average run. It is therefore no motivation for K engined cars to turn up to each event knowing they have to compete against superior machinery. By creating the new class it will hopefully encourage R400 and R500 K and D's to return to Class 5 as they will be seen to be competitive with standard box. It may also encourage more Busa's to return to the Championship as there will be some competition. We may have weaker classes for a couple of years but at least they will be competitive. The new class should have the big Duratecs win on circuit and Busa elsewhere - fairly even spread. It will have an effect on the overall Championship. I propose to wipe all my records and Busa ones from the existing Class 5 results and look for the fastest H pattern time, this should be fairly simple. Class 5 would then be able to compete for the Cup. The new Class will not be able to compete for the overall until 2 dry years of events have been run at the venue. - This is 90% decided but I would appreciate wider comment.

 

3. Remove Tyre width restriction in Class 3 and 4. Initially the restriction was introduced on the basis of cost. However now that ZZR's are in the game and are more expensive this does not follow. Removing the restriction would allow those who compete in other championships to run the same wheel tyre sizes. Therefore it would be logical to remove the restriction. - Not approved Tyre size restriction to remain.

 

4.Clarrification that MEMS remap is not permitted in 1-3. - decided - not for discussion

 

5. Suspension - Removal of the restriction to 1 Way adjustable dampers for Classes 1 -4. Not approved - Retain the current rule.

 

 

I hope the above are clear and look forward to your views.

 

If you have any other items you feel should be discussed please email and post here.

 

Simon

[skydragon]

Simon, didn't realise we weren't having a tech forum this year, so here's my 2p's worth;

 

On the subject of double drives. Since it's not vital we run in strict class order at a hillclimb/sprint, why not have two sub- classes for double drives? eg. Class 1D and 2D.

 

Class 1D (the first driver, irrespective of class) runs at the very start of all the L7C runs (before the current class 1) and class 2D (the second driver, irrespective of class) runs at the very end of all the L7C runs (after the current class 6).

 

If the two new sub-classes cause some kind of admin headache at actual events, then just place the dual drivers in our class 1 and class 6 runs respectively.

 

This is an easy way of ensuring maximum 'separation' and means the double drives have a less rushed event. ie. There is no need to cram both double drives in the same class runs and have the tyre heating debate we have. (If we use your suggestion and run both in the same runs, making the fastest driver go first, this still leaves the major issue of the 2nd driver having a significant advantage)

 

HTH

 

 

[Alan Bowler]

Skydragon - ok apart from the factor of changing weather (rain)/track (oil)

conditions during our runs.

This gives a potentially more significant advantage or disadvantage

to either driver than the effect of warmed tyres for the "slower" driver.

 

(How about Richard uses ZZRs and Tom uses a seperate set of wheels

with Kumhos, and class three change the wheels over for them between

their runs 😬 )

 

AB

[DSL]

A very bold statement stating that Busa's are 1.5-2 seconds per run faster than a big power K, how do we know that You'd best be hoping your one's that quick then Simon, I shall be checking & reminding you of that if your not 😬

 

If Busa's / sequential boxed cars are to moved to the new class 6 (which I don't mind by the way) why not take the existing records from class 5 cars that are to become ineligible, ie yours with the elite box & mine, then make those the new class benchmarks instead of starting afresh, or am I missing something 🤔

 

 

[BYKer Will]

Simon As a non competitor I feel a bit out of place sticking my nose in but hope you don't mind too much. I am tempted though for next year if you change the classes.

 

 

The new class 5 sounds good as I always thought all those r400 ish cars must have had a hard time with the real big guns. I think it would be great to see all non sequential r400and r500s in the same class. I suspect it will encourage some new entries.

 

Finally how about considering letting the STANDARD blackbirds into class 5 like you do with the fireblades in class 4. The standard blackbirds are very close to r400 pace in my view but they will get destroyed by the big busas and duratecs in the new class 6. I am pretty sure I know of a few blackbirds who would be tempted to give it a try if pushed!

 

Best wishes

 

Will

[Simon.Rogers1]

Chris - weather is the problem. Everyone in a class needs to have as best opportunity as possible to run in the same weather conditions.

 

Darren - Perhaps its your times We will be taking your times and Andy Griffs but mine are to slow i think and would be unfair. It only affect the overall so its not such an issue for a couple of years.

 

Will - we have thought long and hard about the split point. Its just easier to do it this way. If people come along with B'birds and they are clearly down on time and speed we will look again at it. Those with B'birds could have been in 5 recently and we could have seen in advance of this decision.

[david nelson]

Will

 

I have put the case that the power limit should be at 230bhp. Most club members with tuned K's will be between 205 and 230 bhp and standard R400 and R500 would not need any engine mods.

 

I was informed that as we already had some k's with more than 230 bhp (i know of 3) that having already spent their money it would be not be far on them.

 

I for one will be leaving my 210BHP engine in the garage and returning to class 3 next year. I am happy to compete with 230 bhp cars as I feel I have a good chance of being competitive but giving 40BHP away is too much.

 

Will, I think your proposal is spot on and is very inclusive and the right way forward for a club Motorsport championship.

 

David

[robmar]

Simon

 

with regard the records that Darren has raised I would support that and I think i have a reasonable list of what i think the old and new records should be in bth classes.

 

Add in Rob G's duratec at Goodwood and Coombe as well if that spec car is now in the new class 6

 

I will see if i can get a definative list and send to you to see if we think it is a good idea (or not)

 

Rob

[skydragon]

Don't understand how weather could affect this. As the last Curborough showed it can start raining at any point and if it does rain mid class then it's the same as the drivers being separated further.

 

Edited to add - the continual issue of warmed tyres for some on every run is far more of an issue than the occasional risk of rain in terms of affecting results across a season.

 

My suggestion would get rid if the issue, which otherwise will just rumble on .

 

Edited by - skydragon on 26 Sep 2011 10:33:35

[rgrigsby]

This all sounds pretty good, the power cap in class 5 is always going to be difficult and it will upset someone. I'm around the 245-50bhp level so if it was set at that point I'd end up in the new class 5 which given how much faster the Busa/sequential gearbox cars can be at some places seems kind of sensible.

 

There are always going to be exceptions (as Rob M has already mentioned Goodwood and Castle Coombe are two) where a new class 5 car maybe close or faster than a new class 6 car depending on spec but I guess it has to be a compromise on the overall performance across the majority of venues.

 

Cheers

Rob

[Simon.Rogers1]

Rob G

 

Thanks for the reply - you were someone we were concerned about - power wise.

 

It all provides more info for the actual limit.

[skydragon]

An idea to float ref classes 4 and 5, whilst we are discussing potentially changing the structure.

 

With the current proposed class scheme (as you have shown above) in class 4 or 5, there are always going to be winners and loosers in the power stakes. (eg David's comments as above ref his 210bhp engine, or someone new turning up in a 200bph (ish) R400 and having to compete against someone with far more powerful 245bhp+ car). This is never going to please everyone.

 

Perhaps a better idea to consider is one single class, which combines classes 4 and 5 and uses a handicap Vs bhp points weighting system.

 

ie. If you drive a 175bhp K-series, you will compete in the same class as a 240bhp Dura, but a points weighting system will equalise the scores, to ensure no advantage to the more powerful car. This would be fairer across a wider spectrum of cars.

 

It might take some head scratching to work out what the weighting multiplier should be, but I'm sure a happy and fairly accurate system could easily be devised.

 

eg. If it is reckoned a 245bhp car should be 5% faster than a 175bhp car round an average hillclimb/sprint, then this 5% is then applied to the new class 4/5 scores as a weighting for that 245bhp car. A simple chart would show power versus weighting to apply. Simples!

 

Before you ask this isn't to give me any advantage...my car will be 189.9999999bhp next year and a little more torque, after the engine rebuild to 1800cc over winter. I look forward to joining the 104mph+ club at Curborough....although I'm sure I still won't keep up with the good drivers...even the class 3 ones 😬 😬 😬)

 

 

[Nigel Fox]

"Perhaps a better idea to consider is one single class, which combines classes 4 and 5 and uses a handicap Vs bhp points weighting system."

 

I don't think this would be a good idea. You would need a calculator and a list of everyone's bhp to figure out who had won! Part of the fun is watching the times of other competitors.

I support the proposal made by Simon.

[Simon.Rogers1]

Chris - will this weighting system be weather dependent? So with more power in the wet the difference becomes less as clearly shown in Wiscombe less power can be faster

 

Oh and when is wet, wet or was it just damp and then the weighting system was equalized or was it dryer than damp.......

 

Sorry Chris - I understand what you are trying to do but it just doesn't work. Far to complicated.

 

The guys in F1 don't get a head start because they run less power and no kers. The rules are clearly defined and are working well - proven by the competition in most classes.

 

The slight tweek is only there to prevent a big gap appearing in one of the classes that is a possibility. If it doesn't prove to be the case then we can review it.

 

Thanks for replying though

[david nelson]

Simon

could you put forward the clubs position on this we are talking about a bhp limit but what are the pros and cons of different levels.

 

Will has state "The new class 5 sounds good as I always thought all those r400 ish cars must have had a hard time with the real big guns. I think it would be great to see all non sequential r400and r500s in the same class. I suspect it will encourage some new entries."

 

I agree with Will but could someone explain why this is a bad idea for the championship?

 

 

 

 

David

 

Edited by - David Nelson on 26 Sep 2011 18:45:05

[skydragon]

Ok, just an idea *smile*

 

 

 

 

[DSL]

104mph at Curb for a class four car, that can't be right surely

 

Any chance I could join class four, as I only managed 103mph in my soon to ostracised Busa 😬

[DSL]

On class 5 eligibility, I can see no reason why a standard Blackbird should not be allowed to stay in 5.

 

It would struggle massively to get near a win from my brief ownership of same without a really fast driver & be well out of its depth in 6

[Blue-Lines]

Given that both the kumho v70 and avonZZR's have broken all previous records set in our championship (and others), what are peoples thoughts on lifting the restriction on crossply tyres (acb10's)?

 

Also, can I seek clarification on the bhp limits as they are at present - are we talking power at the flywheel or at the rear wheels?

 

Finally, all things being equal I don’t think a standard Bird is going to trouble a Busa or super-duper Duratec, and I echo David and Will’s comments about encouraging new club members into the sprint championship. I’ve never troubled the front runners in my class but regardless of this, and indeed any changes to the reg’s that follow these discussions, a club sprint is an enjoyable day out and well worth a bash for those who have never had a dabble in clubman motorsport.

 

Martyn

 

[martin b]

I would agree with additional classes but the bhp limit should not be dictated by current competitors engine specifications, a limit of 250-265bhp is too high.

To encourage more competitors a lower limit would allow those with K R400s/R500s & D R400s (of which there are many around) to be competitive within reason. The bhp difference between R400s & R500s has incresed with the new Duratecs and you have the opportunity to make the regs more inclusive. I am presuming a standard K series R500 is 230bhp.

Class 4. Up to 190bhp & fireblades

Class 5. Up to 230bhp & blackbirds

Class 6. Anything else on List 1Bs

Class 7. Slicks (Is anyone actually competing in this class now)

 

Martin

[metal mickey]

Simon, for the sake of clarity would you mind listing what the exisiting classes are and what the new ones would be along side them. I am out of touch wit hnot competing resently - am I right thinking there would be one bec class(the new class 6,except fb's) and becs are not to be allowed in other classes?

Thanks

[Simon.Rogers1]

Mike - the short answer is your correct.

 

here are the current regs.

 

Let me know if there is anything else you need clarification for.

 

 

[BYKer Will]

I think Martin B makes sense as usual but in addition why not have class 6 for over 230/235hp and standard boxes to give somewhere for the super ks, r500d and home built 250 ish hp duratecs and then use class 7 for anything sequential other than standard blackbirds and fireblades.

 

I'm not aware of many sequential cars not running pretty decent spec engines anyway so that should work.

 

By aligning a little closer to typical caterham specs I am pretty sure you will get more involved. A couple of calls this evening get me 4 r400 spec cars and a blackbird who fancy getting involved next year if they have a level ish playing field but would, as David says, not be interested on going up against 256 hp duratecs even if they have the same gearbox.

 

 

Will

 

Better get sorted for next year now I have stuck my nose in.

[DSL]

If we are not careful there will end up being only one or two cars in each of the top three classes here......

 

These alleged class 5 newbies bleating about being put off having a go for not having that last 30 bhp are misguided, the limiting factor for success will be their ability behind the wheel. Bare in mind that Simon has won class 5 for the last what 3 years is it? in a car with less than 220 bhp.

 

Unless your only planning on attending the longer circuit based sprint events I wouldn't worry about it greatly, maybe just need to drive a bit harder

[DSL]

For guys saying they are not interested in going up against 256 bhp Duratec's, why not 🤔 Surely it would be great bragging rights to beat then with your little K's.

 

To be honest for any of the hill climb events I would still take an R400 over a Duratec car (with any amount of power)