Stopped misfiring now just cant stop.

[Tim V-W]

Since I have stopped misfiring my way around the countryside it is clear that my standard brakes aren't so good.

 

I have read lots of threads that suggest that the standard brakes are actually pretty effective and so i was wondering if they can be made even more effective by, say, adding the race MC, or anything else, before I commit to spending another £700.

 

Looking at options I have established that Alcons for the solid discs are no longer available as demand has dried up (although the option for Alcon 4 pot caliper with 2 piece bell and rotor at circa £1000 looks lovely) and it looks like Wilwoods require too much of a bespoke installation for my taste. Hi Spec has some history that is off putting and I am not sure about the lack of dust seals, squealing and possible cracking issues etc, but the cost is better than the CC kit and they bolt on and can use solid discs.

 

So, Can I make my standard brakes effective enough for my something close to R300 car, or do i need a Big Brake upgrade of some kind?

 

Please help cut a way through this current fug!

 

Cheers

 

Tim

 

[Roger Ford]

What's wrong with them? I have no problems locking my wheels with standard brakes on track, not sure why it would be different on the road. Or are you after more feel rather than power? What pads are you currently using?

 

 

[Stationary M25 Traveller]

Mintex M1144 pads in the standard front calipers is the first low cost upgrade.

 

 

[MADMALC]

Can you lock the fronts up? If you can then may be some grippier tyres would help.

1144 is the way I went but more for feel and the lack of heat induced fade.

 

S7MAD

[Tim V-W]

Currently running Mintex M1144, as you say SM25T it was the first low cost upgrade. It gave a little improvement but not much.

 

The brakes feel as though they could definitely use more power. In fact feel isn't as much of an issue but from higher speeds retardation definitely is i.e. rapidly approaching stop raises the pulse rate however hard you push the brake pedal.

 

I haven't actually 'tried' to lock the front but I think the scenario above suggests that it probably isn't going to happen easily - perhaps stamping on the pedal at lowish speed might do it!

 

But is does sound as though there is more stopping to be had from the standard set up. What is the view on the race MC with standard calipers or drilled / slotted discs?

 

Cheers

 

Tim

[Richard Price]

Tim,

As Roger asks "what's wrong with them?"

 

I also use standard disks and calipers, but I've been using 215 supersoft Kumho V70A's all around this year in the clubs speed championship, and I have not had a problem stopping, and if I'd have pressed the pedal harder, I could have locked wheels if I'd have wished.

 

If you're doing track days with sticky tyres, then there is a possibility that you'll suffer either brake fade (hard pedal, and reduced stopping power) or fluid boil (soft pedal).

 

If you feel that you have to press the brake pedal too hard to make the car stop, then fitting the AP "uprated" master cylinder will make matters worse! The AP master cylinder has a bore 1.69 times greater than the standard mastercylinder, so the pedal effort required is also 1.69 times greater.

 

 

As SM25T says, if you're currently running standard pads, then Mintex 1144 pads have a higher coefficient of friction, so the same pedal pressure gives greater stopping power.

However, increasing the front brake effectivness, means that you'll be able to lock the fronts way before the rears (so you overall stopping power will be reduced!) - Fitting the Caterham pads that are specified for use with the uprated front brakes brings the balance much more as it should be.

 

Don't under estimate how much stopping power is derived from the rear brakes. I now have dual master cylinders and a balance bar pedal box, and can adjust my brake balance as much as I like. As the balance is wound to the back, the increas in stopping power is very noticable! (but if "Wilwoods require too much of a bespoke installation for my taste", then dual master cylinders will ne even less to your taste!)

 

 

[Richard Price]

Tim,

our posts have overlapped!

 

"haven't actually 'tried' to lock the front" - You need to try harder

 

If you fit the upraded master cylinder it will be even harder to stop the car (because you'll have to use more paedal pressure to acheive the same stopping power).

[Roger Ford]

I think a lot of people judge the brakes by comparison with servo-assisted tin-top brakes (and I don't know if this is true of you, Tim). Hence they find that a lot of pressure is needed so figure the brakes aren't "good" enough. But doubtless after a thousand quids worth of expensive upgrades, they'll find that not much has really changed.

 

If you haven't locked the wheels, you've no idea what the limits of your brakes are, so there doesn't seem much point in talking about upgrading them! Try pushing the pedal harder! (And preferably get the best combination of pads you can as well).

[Paul Deslandes]

When you changed the pads from, presumably, CC standard to 1144 did you de-glaze the disks and bed the pads in?

 

The disks 'take up' pad material and sometimes if you don't clean all the old material off they don't work as well as they should. There are some archive threads, e.g. here on de-glazing and, once done, you need to bed the pads in by doing some fairly aggressive braking under controlled conditions, i.e. when no one else is around 😬 Your pads will be okay and will only need a light face clean before bedding in.

 

I'd try this before you do anything else and I definitely agree with the comments re the race master cylinder making things worse not better. As has been said, it may also be that you're not used to having to push the pedal so hard.

 

Paul

 

 

[Tim V-W]

Ok, so it sounds as though my standard brakes are definitely not performing at their optimum.

 

Currently, I am unsure that the wheels could be locked by pressing the pedal harder. I am pretty sure that it is not air in the system as it does not pump up and I have changed the fluid in the last six months, so i was thinking of getting a rebuild kit (I assume there is one available).

 

I understand that the race MC would require more effort as the bore is larger, however, it also has a shortened travel. As applying effort isn't an issue, but my short legs 😬might be I thought it was worth investigating. I also thought that it is an upgrade that wont be wasted if I do go on to fit 4 piston calipers.

 

It seems to me that there is possibly enough to be had from the current set up with some attention or I can go straight to definite extra power of either the CC Big Brakes or alternative.

 

Richard - I am being a bit tongue in cheek about 'bespoke' installation, perhaps just looking for an easy winter this year!

 

As a matter interest why did you go for the dual MC set up and can you let me have some more details?

 

 

 

[Tim V-W]

A couple of posts crossed with mine, so thanks for the input.

 

For clarity, my brakes don't work well. It doesn't matter how hard you push they don't work well and so i am asking for advise about what might be done to improve the standard brakes before I look at upgrading.

 

Paul - Yes, I did de-glaze the discs as i am aware that some pad materials are not compatible with each other. As I said earlier, the Mintex pads did show a small improvement and it is this that made me think that something else is not quite right. As all brake pipes on my car are either solid or braided, it is unlikely to be weak or bulging hoses, so maybe the MC is not performing at its best.

 

A couple of people say the race MC wont help, but, if I would be happy with the increased force needed to operate it to the same degree as the standard one is the reduced travel likely to allow that pressure to be transmitted with less leg extension?

 

Roger, your point is spot on about expensive upgrades and is exactly why I wanted feedback about the standard system. Actually, there is no reason why a non assisted brake system has to require loads of force. I could stand my CBR on its nose with one finger on the brake lever.

 

I am persuaded that there is much more available from my standard system and will start with a full refurb of this and see what that does to the braking.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

 

[Mavic82]

In general the simple test of being able to lock the front wheels with a 'spike stop' is not sufficient to determine that brake performance is OK. It is far more complex a subject being effected by brake balance, inertia, temperature surface area, alaignment, flexing, hoses etc etc.

 

Certainly road cars and sprint vehicles with a 'K' can certainly work well and the 4 pots with vented dscs may be considered over the top but even with good pads I feel the standard brakes can be less than confidence inspiring with repeated high speed stops or down hill blats.

 

From what others have said it appears many are happy with the standard system so a good deglaze front and rear, check for push by in the MC seals, careful progessive bedding and a balance check will let you know whether you consider the standard brakes acceptable, and that is often much more to do with effort, feel, progression and travel than actual performance. Definately worth checking the rear caliper function and linings and the master cylinder seals, as others have pointed out a good proportion of the braking in a seven is from the rear.

 

Grooved and drilled discs will not improve performance unfortunately, they reduce surface area and are there in high temp and demand environments to help the gases escape the friction area.

 

I have a spare standard MC if you want to try a differnet unit.

 

 

[Richard Price]

As a matter interest why did you go for the dual MC set up

 

Tim,

I was looking for ultimate flexibility of brake balance. Whilst I had acheived a reasonable brake balance using 1144's in the front, and Caterham "blue" rear pads, I'd found the "blue" rears not very durable (I'd found that they start to crumble with hard track use).

Sprinting and hillclimbing, I was looking for the odd couple of tenths of a second here and there. I've tended to run a little more negative camber at the front for the last couple of years, and the more negative camber you run, the less the tyres grip when braking (but the tyres work quite well in the corners ).

As I said earlier, the rear brakes really do add to the stopping power available, so, with an adjustable bias pedalbox, its possible ta adjust the balance until the fronts lock just before the rears.

 

Additionally, I'm now able to run what ever pads I like without worrying about whether I'll have a reasonable balance or not. I'm currently running the larger MGB535M1144 mintex pads in the front, and also runnung 1144 pads in the rear.

 

Pedal box picture here

 

Back to the original topic. If you didn't bed in your pads correctly when first fitted, then you may have glazed your pads. However, if that is the case, and your rears are working properly, then you'll have too much rear bias, and your rears will lock first .

 

 

 

Edited by - Richard Price on 22 May 2011 12:03:27

[Tim V-W]

Thanks Guy I might take you up on the MC.

 

Richard - I dont think that I need ultimate adjust ability, just the ability to stop when i want to .

 

ETA - your install looks a very neat set up to give full adjust ability with easy access. Worth a look if considering a new MC and probably comparable on cost?

 

Edited by - Tim V-W on 30 Oct 2010 07:30:33

[Roadsport06]

I have 1144 and these transformed the braking (too much rear braking was ). On reading Richard's advice I changed to blue spots at the rear. These have helped the balance no end!

I can certainly lock up with my standard set up.

 

BRG and Yellow nose now with added brooklands

[Drumster]

Tim,

 

I, too, have standard calipers and Mintex 1144s and have found them ample for sprinting (although I'm not in the same league as Richard 😶‍🌫️) and I have to stop a Dagenham boat anchor 😳 (Ford x/flow) at full tilt.

 

No-one has mentioned changing the brake fluid yet, so if it hasn't been changed recently then that's another cheap option to start with.

 

Chris Alston

C7CAT Supersprint

 

[Drumster]

Also I do have the AP uprated master cylinder and can confirm that it doesn't help with braking, but for many, like me, I just prefer the 'feel' of a firmer pedal.

 

Chris Alston

C7CAT Supersprint

 

[Tim V-W]

Chris

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I did the brake fluid when I switched to Mintex pads a few months ago c/w bleeding several times.

 

I was semi serious about the shorter travel of the race MC suiting my shorter legs even though the effort required might be higher. I also prefer a firm brake pedal as long as it isn't to switch like.

[Gridgway]

One thing you might find useful is changing the pedal. It sounds like you have the low-ratio pedal. I had this and it didn't give me confidence at all. I changed to the high ratio pedal and all was fine. Obviously it didn't change the brake efficiency, but really changed the way they feel.

 

Graham

[OliverSedlacek]

I would also suggest changing the disks, as they are really cheap. Disks can develop a sort of glaze, and some people recommend deglazing them, but IMO you might as well just change them.

[Crudders]

Second OS - a pair of standard discs is quite a bit cheaper than a set of 1144 pads! Get them from Canley, Jigsaw, Quiller and other Triumph specialists.

 

If you fancy upgrading to a Wilwood setup, Rally Design do a kit with everything you need here for £294.80 + VAT. RD are good for bulk discounts too, so it could be worth putting a BB together if you can drum up sufficient interest.

 

Having said that, I'm with Chris (Aeroscreens) - if everything is working as it should, I find the stopping power of the standard setup pretty good. Except on wet grass

 

Cruds

[Tim V-W]

Thanks all

 

I have sourced a set of Caterham 4 pots and discs from a blatchatter so will do a thorough overhaul of the rears, reservoir and fluid when I fit them.

 

Hopefully will sort me out nicely 😬

[Gridgway]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, still check your pedal. When I had big brakes and the low ratio one, I didn't like my brakes at all.

 

Graham

[Graham Sewell]

Tim,

 

I put the Caterham 4-pot calipers onto my live axle x-flow car. The reason I changed was that I could lock the rears before the fronts - which never gives great confidence. BTW, I have only the standard M/C and find no problems with this setup.

 

I think it is one of the better upgrades I have done, but equally I find that the first blat of spring is less than confident - as if the disks and pads need a thorough derusting first. Get a coupe of hundred miles on the car and they improve dramatically.

 

I hope that you find it to be your solution too.

 

Cheers,

 

Graham

------

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[Tim V-W]

Graham(s)

 

1. I will check the pedal, can you explain the difference between high and low ratio for identification?

 

2. Graham S - Thanks I will watch the first few runs.

 

Cheers

 

Tim