Engine choice

[taffyracer]

Hi , i'm new to blatchat and new to caterhams and have just bought this Caterham kitand will soon set about fulfilling an ambiton i've had since I was 13. So, i'm in need of lots of advice and technical assistance.

 

I have the choice of engines to fit of K series, Zetec or Duratec, I want good solid reliable power around the 160bhp mark but also want something that has will not date too badly and has a clear upgrade path to around 220bhp at a later date, but at this stage I want to make it as easy as possible and without destroying the budget.

 

I have spoken to Raceline and they were helpful and recommended the Zetec kit that they do rather than a K series, I hear alot of bad things about K's but there are so many of them there has to be something good about them.

 

I'd appreciate advice and some detailed explanations of the advantages/disadvantages of each application.

 

 

 

Edited by - taffyracer on 29 Aug 2007 21:56:23

[Tony C]

Welcome - go for a Duratec 😬

 

If I had the choice over again that's what I'd get - truely fantastic engine in all regards. Suggest you talk to Ammo at Receco here - top bloke on the top engine

 

BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It seems that perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)

[Julian Thompson]

There wouldn't be a lot wrong with that R1 motor that Scott had in mind, either 😬

[Julian Thompson]

In all seriousness if you have discounted a bike motor then the Durex - sorry - 😬Duratecs are much stronger ( 😳) than the K series and also, importantly, are very reasonable to buy power with - again another for Ammo at Raceco who has forgotton more about tuning engines than most people know...

 

Then again, the K series has Dave Andrews knowledge behind it which means that you've got great backing there, too.

 

I personally don't think the Zetec can compare with the Duratec because it is significantly heavier (IIRC) than either of the two flyweights above.

 

220 hp in a K is considered to be *quite a lot* wheras a 220hp Duratec is considered to be a *starter package* 😬 😬

[Stationary M25 Traveller]

Welcome aboard - whatever engine you choose

 

1.8VVC 160 bhp K-series here with 5-speed box - road use

 

******************

And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking...

 

And racing around to come up behind you again. new link to photos

[taffyracer]

TBH i hadn't seriously considered the bike engine route, i know they're pretty awesome just not sure if it's what I always considered my caterham to be, bike engines to me mean mega high revving screw the ollocks off it frenetic motoring and i'd like this to me more about sunday B road blats, midrange and the odd trackday, would be nice and light up front though, will give it some thought.

 

Where can i find the relative weights of the different applications?

 

Where should i be looking for Duratecs, don't want to spend mega money, happy to buy used rather than new

 

http://www.xlmotorsport....doing really badly in PS1!

[Julian Thompson]

With good technique a bike car can be driven nicely but not as satisfyingly smoothly as a car car on the road (IMHO), and as you say there is something nice about lots of midrange in a small light car. Your balance of road/track might suggest a car car is a better plan ? (But don't write the bike car off until you've been taken out in one by someone that has mastered his car)

 

Not sure about used Duratec but I know Ammo has new Duratec on his website for £1300 !

 

[Julian Thompson]

Actually I think I need to add that for the road in a 7 you might find it really frustrating with more than about 150 hp because you can't really use the car properly.

 

Many people consider the 130bhp Superlight K Series to be the ultimate road 7 because it is so usable so much of the time.....

 

Try using full power in a 220hp 7 in more than one gear for more than a few seconds and your driving license will become an interesting origami project for the chief constable to amuse himself with as he counts his speed cameras 😬

[Jason Plato]

Hi Taffy - me again

 

speak to raceline about their zetec package thats realy good value for 160 bhp.

 

or pop round mine this evening and chat

 

dave

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia rear gunner

 

[AMMO]

TR

 

As Dave says the Zetec from Raceline is great value for money but one thing to consider is that it is now a discontinued engine. I am a great Zetec fan having had one myself. When the Duratec came along I couldn't resist fitting one. A better option in my opinion. A Duratec car is likey to be easier to sell than a Zetec car even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Zetec.

 

Are you the guy that emailed me about Duratecs? If so give me a call. I have 2 litre and 2.3 engines in stock at the moment.

 

AMMO

[elie boone]

Just beware that the Duratec exhaust is on the other side than a K or Zetec.

 

[robert green]

I have just put a zetec in my car so am biased! BUT, from what you say you want the zetec is probably the best compromise between, reliability, torque and cost for the outputs you desire. A Duratec is a lovely proposition, but I would expect it to be more expensive to fit (maybe not if you are starting from scratch). The potential for very high outputs is obviously there, but 220 is obtainable from the zetec, and the excess capacity for more maybe surplus to requirements. All IMHO obviously!

[taffyracer]

yeah maybe i'm being a tad too ambitious, priority really is get something decent in the car before I start planning huge upgrades! Zetec sounds ideal TBH, Ammo thank you for your time and honest advice this am, appreciate it. I do like the idea of fitting a Duratec due to it being alot more modern but i'm concerned over cost, my budget really is about 4-5k and I need a clutch/flywheel, loom, ecu, exhaust and all the other bits for that. But, it doesn't have to be a new engine I suppose but would prefer new ancillaries

 

Dave, YHM

 

http://www.xlmotorsport....doing really badly in PS1!

[taffyracer]

Sorry to bump this up but rather than start a new thread....What's the general opinion on bike engined cars, are they considered to be black sheep of the family, what about future values, driveability, did they need more frequent and costly rebuilds, what about the lack of torque, is it a problem and what about the chassis, does it need any modifications to take something that revs so high. Weight advantages are obviouosly enormous, any companies I should be talking to other than those mentioned?

 

http://www.xlmotorsport....doing really badly in PS1!

 

Edited by - taffyracer on 30 Aug 2007 16:12:53

[CageyH]

I would not go down the nike engined route if you are planning on doing high mileage.

The engine is not designed for it.

Zetec if you must, but a Duratech would be my choice if I was going for a new engine, unless the Honda V-Tec was available at a good price.

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....!

[Julian Thompson]

oooh.

 

Can of worms.

 

I'm really not sure I agree with the assumption that Cagey H makes about high mileage - I think that the bike engines are very capable of doing good mileages but the problem is that, try as you might, they are just not as "nice" to drive and the human element might not WANT to drive them as far, if you see what I mean. I would baulk at a >200 mile stint, but then again my K car was aeroscreened as well so I would have baulked at that trip in that car, too. My best pal Pat went to Nurburgring in his aeroscreen BlackBird Westfield and didn't blink an eyelid - and neither did the car, despite being subjected to what can only be described as Pat's inspirational, brilliant, on the absolute edge of control and very, very fast lapping of the circuit! Guess it's all personal.

 

I personally love mine but that's because I have done the VX then K series thing and consider that the simply astonshing sequential paddle shift, 11000 rpm experience on the circuit and then sensible 8k changes on the road are worth the compromise of having to concentrate on my driving when on the road to ensure I'm in the right gear as I come to a junction etc... To be honest now I've done a couple of thousand miles in it I'm totally at home with it but it did take some getting used to it. Have to say there is no way back - the handling is SOOOOO pure - I swear it's addictive and magical.

 

From a future value perspective forget it - the BEC's are terrible. But then they're cheaper to buy I guess.

 

Chassis - no problem.

 

Costly rebuilds? No - an entire engine and box is £1k. 😬

 

Unless you give it to Raceco and ask them to make a 230hp Blackbird. In which case it's not 1k. But then you or I would not ever be that stupid, would we? 😬 😬 😬 😬 😬

 

Ahem.

 

Sorry.

 

Seriously you're more likely to get 'box trouble with a bike box than actual engine problems, but as you get used to it you'll tend to be less hard on it, and therefore will inflict less damage when you're on your second box. I've not managed to bust mine yet (and neither did Nick Chan or his wife or AFAIK Graham either or the bike man before him.....) but if I do then it won't be too costly to fix....certainly a Caterham 6 speeder will be more expensive.

 

Cost for me is not necessarily the motivator, if I'm honest, but overall my only regret is that I didn't get a BEC sooner - I have an absolute laugh in it !

 

[rgrigsby]

There's a guy on the se7ens list with a blackbird engine in a pre-lit Westy that's done 60k miles of which I think about 45k has been whilst it was in the westy. He's the current Scottish Hill Climb champion and not exactly renowned for driving slowly on the road 😬

 

Having said that Blackbird engines do seem to be renowned for lasting for a long time, some of the bikes have done over 200K apparently.

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[taffyracer]

oh i'm just so confused, i like the idea of a bike engined car for when i'm on track and I love high revving engines and the weight saving is huge, but i'm not sure if i could live with something that frenetic, i want to do sunday blats and some trackdays but don't want to be dealing with gearbox rebuilds and fragile engines. Duratec looks expensive but clearly the better engine but Zetec looks like a good compromise but I don't want to do it and then wished I'd gone Duratec, its the ancillaries that are going to cost really so I suppose the difference is going to be relatively small when push comes to shove. If only someone had a decent 2nd hand complete engine with ecu and all the ancillaries going. Got some time before the kit arrives so we'll see what transpires

 

http://www.xlmotorsport....doing really badly in PS1!

[timbo]

Rob... ahh.. how many rebuilds has JB done with that ole donkey .

 

BUSA POWWWER

[Slipper man]

Like Dave Jackson, I would go the Zetec route. The Duratec is a great engine, but I couldn't live with getting hot feet every time I drove the car, which you would get with the Duratec because the exhaust is right in front of the driver's feet. On the Zetec it is on the passenger side so it is not a problem (for the driver...)

[BBL]

The Duratec is a great engine, but I couldn't live with getting hot feet every time I drove the car...

That's because you are Slipper man! If it were Shoe man, he would go Duratec.

 

- Sean

[Irrelevant]

What's the general opinion on bike engined car

taffyracer: BECaterhams are expensive to build. Maybe for some, a replacement engine may be cheap, but it shouldn't be blowing engines anyway so don't get too hung up on cheap replacement motors thing.

Building a BEC is a lot of work and the bits cost a lot - dry sump systems, reverse boxes, wiring looms, engine cradles, fancy exhausts, etc. etc. etc. on top of this, labour for an install is typically c.£3K.

BEC route is far cheaper by buying one that's already made - You may have a kit of R1 related bits, but there's still a lot of work to nail it all together and get it working properly.

If I was in your position and after a BEC road and track car, for a lower budget, I'd go for a Blackbird. Plenty of money and I'd probably plump for a 2008 1340cc Busa motor - although I must admit I have not read up on the new Busa motor. It's quite possibly just a bored current Busa motor with a higher rev limit .

Both the Bird and the Busa will give 160bhp and with some tuning, both can get to 220bhp (the Busa quiet easily/cheaply, but 220bhp is a big tune up for a Blackbird).

 

You're probably best off going with a CECaterham though. As others have said, a Zetec is simple, cheap, and fits your bhp requirements perfecly.

[taffyracer]

Definitely discounted BEC's now, just not what i'm looking for out of Caterham ownershio, Zetec or Duratec for sure, if I could find a decent 2nd hand installation then i'd be happy, cost wise there's not a huge amount in it for a Duratec over Zetec

 

http://www.xlmotorsport....doing really badly in PS1!

[Sheds Moderator]

Hi Taffy, wise move re bike engines I think, they are not a good choice for a first Caterham used on the road, IMO. Your chances of finding a 2nd hand Dura are nil, sorry. Zetec, possibly, but this is the modernise route for the previous XF 7s and they were never a sttandard factory fit. Good choice though.

 

You can find SH k series everywhere, 1.6 supersport engines with all the 7 specific ancillaries go for 5-600 ish, as far as I know. They have shortcomings but are OK once fixed.

 

I second the sentiment that 150 bhp is "enough" on road. Mine was 130 bhp and it was ideal for B road blasts across country. It was also more than fast enough to attract the attentions of the police so be careful. Anyone regularly using 150+ bhp on the road is going to lose their licence, these are fast cars.

[S47zz]

If you got money to blow - Duratec

If you want cheap Reliable power - zetec

If you want potential problems - K series [Though it's reliable up to say 200BHPwhich is plenty for serious road use.

You pays you rmoney. etc

.

Oh make sure you get a gearbox with a good first gear ratio.

Hope to see you at S Wales area meets [next Thursday 6th Sept] *thumbup* 😬

Cheers

Mal